Subject: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 6/30/2002 11:56:33 PM IP: 195.147.234.183
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I noticed that the same falsehoods and misconceptions concerning Sifu Kan and VKCVT keep on cropping up in threads on this forum. In order to try and scotch them once and for all, the following is a list of these along with the reasons why I think they wrong. My apologies if I've answered any of this before, but the idea is to bring everything together.

POINT 1: Sifu Kan learnt the system in 7-8 years but his students are taking at least 20.

ANSWER: You can arrive at all sorts of conclusions if you compare apples with pears. Yes, VK learnt in 7 years but this was full time - 3-4 hours a day, 7 days a week. Few VT/WC/WT students can train like that these days. Therefore, 20 years part time is more like 5 or 6 full time. And people learn at different rates from one another as well.

POINT 2: He is only teaching part of the system.

ANSWER: This is just plain wrong. He WILL teach you the dummy, third form etc. In fact, some of his senior students ARE learning them.

POINT 3: Sifu Kan did not learn the entire system under Yip Man.

ANSWER: Also simply wrong. Just ask any of his kung fu brothers, not many of whom are still alive. Remember - most of the people teaching outside of Hong Kong started training after VK left. Ignore Rene Ritchie on this - he not even Yip Man lineage anyway.

POINT 4: He does not know the entire system anyway.

ANSWER : Wrong again. He offers courses and private lessons in the dummy, third form and weapons. This would be impossible if point 4 were true.

POINT 5: Because you never see any advanced techniques, he lacks ability.

ANSWER: As I may have said before, it not how MANY techniques you need to defeat an opponent, but how FEW that is a measure of true skill in Wing Chun. Do not misinterpret this as saying that advanced techniques should never be used either. You should do what is necessary to nullify what threat is there, nothing less, nothing more. This is a basic VT/WC/WT principle. Most people haven seen VK do any advanced stuff because few people have managed to pose a real threat.

POINT 6: He is ripping his students off by charging too much money and by teaching the
advanced stuff above Chum Kil privately.

ANSWER: His training fees are not excessive. He does now only teach stuff above Chum Kil privately, but so did Yip Man. People within the organisation reckon Sifu Kan should have done this from the beginning because such advanced techniques are best taught in a one to one context.

POINT 7: The title of Chi-sao?is unsubstantiated since it self appointed.

ANSWER: title was given to him by his kung fu brothers (NOT his students as one misguided soul thought). If it not true, why has none of those who trained with him complained?

POINT 8: His title of Grandmaster is also self appointed.

ANSWER: Which therefore applies to the Yip brothers, Leung Ting, William Cheung, Wong and anyone else called randmaster?after Yip Man.

POINT 9: He is engaged in a political war of words.

ANSWER: Unfortunately, Wing Chun has become very political as you all know and everyone seems to be engaged in that war, not just VK. The trouble with the politics is that if you state your case, you?e accused of having an ego. If you remain silent, then this is an admission of guilt.

POINT 10: He? got people doing stances for three months before they learn anything else.

ANSWER: If so, then I? training at a different school. I have NEVER, EVER seen this. Even in the old days when the training was even slower than it is now, this never happened.

POINT 11: All his senior students leave when they get to the dummy, because they can? advance any further.

ANSWER: Who knows why people leave? This happens in all schools. People? lives change along with their priorities. Others think they?e not advancing when in fact they are. It is simply untrue that ALL of his seniors leave. There are those who have stuck with Victor Kan through thick and thin and are still training under him.

POINT 12: He verbally abuses his students and has no respect for them.

ANSWER: I would never train at such a school. VK never shouts at his students or insults them. He does, however, correct their mistakes and it seems that some people are misinterpreting this as verbal abuse for some reason that is beyond me. It could be the old east/west cultural divide - the Chinese are very direct and just tell you what to do without all the strange niceties Westerners expect. I once knew a British man whose wife was from Hong Kong - this sort of thing nearly ended their relationship.

Of course, I? sure that many of you don? see eye to eye with me on the above - if so, let? hear why.

PS: VK is NOT guilty of the following: altering the system, owning a wool covered pension fund, acquiring the title of nth level of whatever, been taught secret foot work, death touches or other closed door things Yip didn? teach his own sons, or doing Kali, Escrima, cardio workouts or other non VT/WC things. What he is guilty of is demanding high standards and teaching quality Kung Fu. I suspect the latter is what is getting up some people's noses.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: No Myth,just Fact Date: 7/2/2002 9:28:39 PM IP: 208.136.201.2
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1,How many of Victor Kan student have finished the system..?
2,How many of Victor Kan student are Sifu..?
3,How many of Victor Kan student know the Weapon..?
4,Why does he only give so-called complete lesson to private student and not senior..?
5,Why does it take more than twenty year for Victor Kan student to even come close to complete system..?
6,Other school don't take any where close to that long..?
7,You going to say other school don't teach real Ving Tsun..?
8,What is efficient about taking twenty year to come close to complete system..?
9,How long has Victor Kan been teaching..?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Pasco David Sifu Date: 7/3/2002 1:15:55 AM IP: 213.78.85.126
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Its good to read the facts regarding my former Instructor Victor Kan.I would like to say that I mostly agree with what has been written.I will soon be writing regarding my own experiences with Classical Ving Tsun Kung Fu.
I personally haven't found another person skills that can surpass Victor Kan's, I only wish he wasn't so childish regarding myself leaving and using pictures of me and Kevin on his site to try and discredit me.
Sorry I have no time to anwser questons at the moment.
Pasco David sifu ClassicalWingChun.com
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: MarkS Date: 7/3/2002 8:51:34 PM IP: 203.185.217.124
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I don't Wong Shun Leung ever refered to himself as Grandmaster. As far as I'm aware he only called himself sifu
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Rank Date: 7/3/2002 11:54:22 PM IP: 155.136.80.26
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Pasco - you are a good guy and so this is some advice for you: Dont lower yourself to making postings on this forum - it will only tarnish your image and reputation.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ving Tsun Date: 7/5/2002 6:09:59 AM IP: 80.40.0.69
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Since when did Kevin Gledhill start using pseudonyms?

Lots of points here, but for starters, he made me stand still for over three bleeding months to learn that god damn stance.

Second, the essence of the argument re: VK is that his heart is not in it, and indeed never was, even when he taught what he taught as conscientiously as possible.

ie at heart it was always about money, and always will be, and that the true heart of a student teacher relationship, which is one of love of some kind or another, was never there, even with his most cherished pupils, and is not there now, even with those who believe absolutely that it is.

And how can you argue something like this? You can't. You just know its true, or you know its false, and thats that. Kevin Gledhill is probably of all his pupils one most respected by Kan, but I guarantee you , if Gledhill stopped teaching tommorrow, he would be person non gratia. Guaranteed!

Martin Bell is one of his top students, and Kan hasnt even taught him how to fight off a grade four.

There are a myriad masters of fighting - those who have spent there whole life learning and then teaching their art - how many truly find their true self. If you truly believe that Kan has found his true self, and has mastered his own self, and is as close to being as real a human being as is possible then carry on arguing his case, because even if flawed, your genuine belief will take you far.

Who knows the truth? I do.

So well spoken or otherwise, your argument just adds fuel to the fire. Try the blanket approach, if for nothing else but originality.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Peterson Date: 7/5/2002 9:06:28 AM IP: 203.123.86.210
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This is absolutely correct. Sifu Wong Shun Leung NEVER wanted to be called anything other than Sifu (teacher/coach/trainer) and detested the way in which the terms "master" and "grandmaster" had been thrown about over the years. His view was quite simple, ...if someone thought you deserving of being called "Sifu", then so be it, but as far as calling yourself any grandious titles, ...forget it! Whenever he was introduced to anyone, he always referred to himself as Wong Shun Leung, ...no titles! His student, Nino Bernardo, like the rest of us in the WSL Family, don't take kindly to those who give themselves fancy labels (we don't give them to ourselves), a legacy inherited from our teacher, and when on a tour of the USA one time, after meeting a guy calling himself "Master Instructor So-and-So", replied, "Hi, I'm Bernardo!" We reckon Sifu deserved the status of a grandmaster, but the man most definitely didn't place himself on a pedastal.
DMP
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Forex Date: 7/5/2002 8:24:55 PM IP: 155.136.80.26
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It is undeniable that Kan is primarily motivated by money. Look at the fiasco between himself and Pasco David. He doesnt even remember the names of students who have studied under him for years.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Pasco David Sifu Date: 7/6/2002 12:23:30 AM IP: 213.78.80.177
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First of all I am not hear to try and defend my former Instructor, 'Victor Kan' from his actions. I am sure he could do that personally for himself.

I think regarding GrandMaster it is as as simlpe as this, he who shouts the loudest will be heard.The old days are almost gone with respect given automatically to the real Masters but now these days we will have to earn it!

I have decided to come to join this forum to clarify truths and facts regarding real Wing Chun Kung Fu, so that the Wing Chun world can move forward and not backwards thuse becoming stale.
I am not on this Forum to teach Classical Wing Chun but to add some guidence from my own gained experiences just like the others here.

Thankyou Rank for the above compliments but there should be no differences made between myself and others. I have already stated this before on the thread 'This forum is dead' regarding my name being used and tarnished, I should be criticized just like everybody else here, anyway it has already began, once I stood on my own two feet to create my own branch by my own former teacher.

I know Victor Kan personally had a great repect for the Late Wong sheung Leung and when he visited Victor's kwoon here in London's china town Victor demaned I personally showed my respect by addressing him as'Si Bak'uncle.

Just a point to clarify 'Sifu' anyway. This has been taken from a Cantonese article written in 1996 by Victor Appiah, a former WC student himself, now has the love for the cantonese language.

Sifu which is made up of to chinese characters. At first, in its broad sense, it is meant 'a skillful person'.Therefore, Sifu did not respectively refer to an Instructor or a Master of Kung Fu. It embraced a Master or a skilled workman of a trade; be a stone mason or a carpenter or an electrician.This was later modified in usage and diversified in its meaning, with a slight change in the formation of the chinese characters to become a special title for a teacher with paternal love, a term of high respect and honour used by students or apprentice to address his or her Instructor or Master. Thuse a Sifu of Kung Fu is a term of high respect and honour used by students of Kung Fu to their Instructors.
The correct way to address your Kung Fu Master is always surname first then 'Sifu' never Sifu first.For example Bruce Lee(Leih Siu Loong) was addressed by his students 'Lee Sifu' not Sifu Lee'.

Pasco David Sifu ClassicalWingChun.com
10th generation.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK STUDENT Date: 7/6/2002 10:06:07 PM IP: 213.86.144.209
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REWARD 5000 HONG KONG DOLLARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Victor Kan was only one of very few students to finish the system with Yip Man. He's a Grandmaster and you're all jealous.
If anyone can prove that he did not finish the whole system under
Yip Man, I will give them H$5000.00. That's right 5000 Hong Kong Dollars.
Please provide solid proof.Photos,letters etc.
Someone in Hong Kong or the USA must know.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Restaurant Worker Date: 7/7/2002 1:01:23 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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They only called Kan the "Untouchable" because he was the rich kid
and when we trained with him we were not allowed to hit him.
He was wealthy and we were lowley restaurant workers.
Otherwise we would have split his lip when we trained blocks with him.
I see he has not changed much,very forgetful as ever.He could not remember the names of his seniors,this made him very popular.
Also he had trouble remembering moves and trick moves.
It probably takes him about an hour to complete.Does he stop in the middle of each section and try to remember what move comes next ?

Now he is calling himself a Grandmaster ? He is a disgrace.

He only started teaching in 1973, he waited until Yip Man had passed away.
He would not dare try to teach while Yip Man was alive.
Someone who has not finished the system should not be allowed to peddle this fake Ving Tsun.






Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: ex Date: 7/7/2002 10:18:16 PM IP: 212.187.250.19
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Kan is a good wing chun exponent, unfortunately money first. I have it on good information that he certainly can teach all three forms, but at a price. thats why 20 years plus training will not mean complete system. But if any rich person got ten grand spare, hey u could learn bil jee right now. .
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 7/7/2002 11:28:54 PM IP: 62.128.212.81
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Ref:Point 12: Being rude and hostile

This happened very recently

Some people who take up Kung Fu lack confidence.

Well this girl at our school was being instructed by VK and he lost
his temper with her. He verbally abused her and put her down very badly.Whatever confidence she had was taken away that day.This girl is a very timid girl and she just kept looking down and wishing the ground would swallow her up.
There was no need for that, he could have corrected her without such hostility and mental cruelty. I don't know if she was used as an example to all the others in the class.But he's really got it in for her.
I should have said something that day to stop it happening.
I am very sorry I did'nt. I wish to apologise to her now for not saying anything.
Why do a hall full of growen men stand around while that type of thing happens?
Well if VK is rude in class in the future I will give full details of the incident on this site.
Don't come to VK school if you are mentally weak.
Or if you get offended if he can't remember your name
If you can't handle abuse and mental cruelty don't come.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: General Scratch Date: 7/8/2002 9:07:39 PM IP: 212.68.234.29
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The people that are offended by Kan Sifu not remembering there names are quite childish. What do you imagine? How many students has he taught? Can you remember the names of the pupils in your highschool? Primary school? university? (sorry , if you ever went that far). Kan Sifu takes care not to blame or badmouth ANY of his fellow Ving Tsun practitioners as long as they don't start. As they do so of course than you can be sure that he will put them down. All these people around here, he doesn't give a crap about you; your not worth loosing a drop of spit, spilling a drop of ink. Have you ever seen him reply here? Have you ever heard one of the remaining Sifus put him down(Ip chun? Ip Ching? W.Cheung? TsT?).And they won't No, on the contrary: Ip ching was told by his father to continue VT with V.Kan; respected late WSL has published positive, honourable articles on VK (DMP should know this).
I could go on but well the ones that should know do know and the others... I don't give a damn either
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: George cannel Date: 7/9/2002 12:43:41 AM IP: 195.224.149.114
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I know pasco David when I trained with him for a while. Like many other schools, he seems to believe that it should take more time to learn wing chun than to study nuclear physics. It is simply absurd that people are led to believe that a relatively simple practice-based physcial activity should take years and years to learn. I had to leave his school because, while a pleasant enough guy, it never occured to him that some people learn faster than others. There was also this one guy who embodied what I hated about that school. This poor sod has been there for a year and a half, but has never done any sticking hands (single or double. How sad is that?



Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: ex Date: 7/11/2002 10:04:29 PM IP: 212.187.250.18
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the guy has little tact no, he teaches wing chun, nothing else (ie not confidence boosting), hes not a nice guy in class. His teaching is often muddled (ie, he is so precise he tells u one way, goes away, comes back and gets angry at you for not learning it right and shows u the same thing different.) Got to love the abuse, its character building. If only it didnnt cost so much money. eh.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragon head Date: 7/13/2002 9:27:46 PM IP: 212.38.183.45
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the great grand master has finally lower him self to have to prove he is what he is all his top students have left due to the fact he admitted in class that he could not teach them any more.if kan learnt the system in 7yrs none of students could have they never stayed that long .never had a fight all he did was stick hands thats how he got the title ,he vists the USA FOR WING CHUN REFRESHER COURSES
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Zinjen Date: 7/14/2002 5:17:04 PM IP: 80.1.224.5
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VK observer, if you don't like the training, you are under no obligation to go, as its your money. But don't slate the guy on this forum. Zinjen predicts that the next time VK reprimands the girl you will be cowering away as you did before.
Ex same. If you don't like the guy, don't pay and don't go. If you don't like his style of teaching, don't go. Don't come here slating the guy.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jango Fett Date: 7/14/2002 8:31:24 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Are you sure the reward is only 5000H$?Are you sure you haven'nt left out a zero from that?
Make it 50,000 Hong Kong Dollars and I will tell you the whole Kan Story.
You lot will save alot of money in the long run.If your seniors knew this they would have left sooner.
You do not want to wait until you are a senior to find out.
That's a lot of wasted time.Don't be a WT Sheep.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: JOHHNY BLAZE Date: 7/15/2002 6:30:25 AM IP: 208.40.37.196
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You snafoo's are Crazzier than Carl D. If i met a master who made me practise SLT for 1-2 years before learning Chum kiu, I would thank god for such a blessing. Or do you want to have a master like Dr.WuWu? He will learn you the whole VT system in 1 year. Of course it all means nothing since you never developed root practising SLT . V.K isnt a baby sitter, he is a fighter. Deal with it.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 7/15/2002 11:51:22 PM IP: 195.147.233.133
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First off, my apologies to the Wong Sheung Leung camp. I had no idea that the late Wong never used the Grandmaster title. Indeed Victor Kan himself is not keen on it either, but when every Tom Dick and Harry is using this title, what can you do?

To the rest of you, could you make sure you read the original points made carefully and only answer if you have something worthwhile to say. So far no one has actually managed to really challenge my original post, other than with rumours or claims with no back up proof or explanation, all of which others have easily refuted. As far as I am concerned, points 1 to 12 remain COMPLETELY unanswered.

It also seems that part of the post was mangled by the forum. Could be my fault. Point 7 concerned the King of Chi-Sao title, in case you were wondering. The accusation usually made is that it is self appointed. It isn't.

By the way, I am NOT Kevin Gledhill.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Forex Date: 7/17/2002 12:02:51 AM IP: 155.136.219.101
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I agree with you e-warrior - the questions you have posed remain unanswered, not least of all by your statements.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: No myth,just Fact Date: 7/17/2002 8:12:25 PM IP: 208.136.201.2
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1,How many of Victor Kan student have finished the system..?
2,How many of Victor Kan student are Sifu..?
3,How many of Victor Kan student know the Weapon..?
4,Why does he only give so-called complete lesson to private student and not senior..?
5,Why does it take more than twenty year for Victor Kan student to even come close to complete system..?
6,Other school don't take any where close to that long..?
7,You going to say other school don't teach real Ving Tsun..?
8,What is efficient about taking twenty year to come close to complete system..?
9,How long has Victor Kan been teaching..?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing Chun Enthusiast Date: 7/18/2002 2:50:34 AM IP: 194.82.103.38
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Facts are he is rude to his students and if you train at his school you do get the feeling you are being abused and milked for all you've got. Plus all you see the seniors practicing is chi sau and basic drills, so you get the feeling that after 3 or 4 years with him you'd get your arse kicked by someone who has studied any other system for the same amount of time.

I suspect most of his students are there for the lineage only, to become a 10th generation Sifu is quite enticing. But how many will make it to this stage with him in under 15 years??? I'd prefer to be an 11th Generation Sifu in 7 years. And who can train 3-4 hours a day 7 days a week with him (as he did with Yip man) if his school is only open 3 days a week???

Some people learn faster than others you know...
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: kanwahchit Date: 7/18/2002 3:10:04 AM IP: 212.187.250.20
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Answers to your answers.

1. Full time? No he didn't learn full time, he was at school, he learnt after school. Wing chun is a quick system to learn. Surely one of his students should have finished the system. Martin has devoted 21 years training, is he not at the right level to finish the system?

2. Yes he will teach any form for a price.

3. You dont know about this, you werent there. Leung Ting says he did, so what. Rene is devoted to wing chun and its history, its safe to assume he is a better source of information.

4. Same as 2.

5. Real threat? Same could be said about any teacher, he your pupil could break your defenses frequently, its time to change teacher. He also practises a very hard way of wing chun. Certain former high students of his have given him a run for his money on sheer strength in chi sao.

6. If you can afford it good for you.

7. He was also called "big guy" by his kung fu brothers.

8. You answered that, he is self appointed.

9. Wise man said, "those who know, do not speak." Is he just pissed off he didn't get what he thought he deserved from his kung fu brothers after yip man passed away.

10. He teaches the foundations slowly which is great.

11. They leave because they cant get along with him. He is difficult to get along with, frustrating and expensive. If your rich, have the time, dont mind his aggressiveness good. But alot of his students high and low level are not rich which is a major factor in their progress, so they leave. There were some damn talented people who left.

12. Stick around. You maybe a hard man who can take abuse but some people cant and dont want to pay for that. On top of that his attitude is irregular. Dont generalise his chinese attitude. theres people like that all over the world.

Hes a good quality teacher, I left five years ago, completed most of the chi sao techniques at red sash level. But theres a reason alot of good guys left him. e-warrior, you'll learn alot from him but hes not perfect, he can be hit in chi sao, he has not got fighting experience like wong sheung leung, his people skills suck. Keep up the good work. I'm doing MMA training now and love applying my wing chun. Does Kan include sparring with his seniors, with the head guards still?
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 7/18/2002 5:56:30 AM IP: 195.147.213.80
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Now the World Cup Footbal and the tennis have finished. Everybody is talking about VICTOR KAN, the undisputed champion, again.

James: Have you learnt Wing Chun before? For how long and from which lineage? Did your friend tell you why so many of his students stay at VKCVT for years? How come GM VK gives private lessons for weapons if his skill does not extend that far. Stupid you!

Restaurant Worker: We all know that GM VK is very very rich in VT Skills. GOD wouldn't allow anayone to hit him in Chi Sao. You had better go back to work in the restaurant and learn the whole system of dish washing. Stop.

VK Observer: Hi spy. GM VK dislikes people like you who go to his class to pick up boys or girls and not to learn Ving Tsun. Once found out, you'll be kicked out. Now you say bad things about GM VK and tell people not to go to his classes. But why on earth do you still go to his school every week, paying ?.66 a lesson to learn genuine VT. Are you nuts or something? you traitor.

- Most people do not have the time, money and brain to go to university. Why bother if one can get a well paid job after college. It is the same situation in the VKCVT system. Some people choose not to go beyond 7th grade.

- A student's progress in VKCVT is counted by lessons not by years.

- Again this disqualified CVT instructor is using GM V Kans name to promote himself and pretend to be very knowledgable in Wing Chun. What a joke!

The great Grandmaster Victor Kan is not a robot. He has got to eat too. Food costs money, you know.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: It Go WANG Date: 7/18/2002 7:24:33 PM IP: 194.82.103.37
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But what are the alternatives to VK in London???

Simon Lau?
Kevin Chan?

Who else???
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Current VK Student Date: 7/19/2002 5:38:21 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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I am pissed off you guys are all slagging off VK Observer.
Get off his case and stay off it.
Anyway I am going to be the first to thank VK Observer for what he is doing. He's trying to make sure the classes have an atmosphere for learning kung fu , free of abuse and rage.
I got to say you have got a lot of nerve VK Observer.Major respect to you.
I noticed some ex students of VK are complaining about him after the event.That's no good to them or us.
They should have done it then and there just like you are doing.
It's hard enough to learn a move without someone standing over you frothing at the mouth.
I know who you are ,you are the student who asked if it's been quiet at the last lesson.Keep a low profile mate.

On the days you don't come,if VK loses his rag I will also start putting all the rage details for all to read.
i hope you don't mind.
VK kept a low profile at the last lesson.

VK Observer, Thanks and Respect to you. You're plum loco !!


Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Zinjen Date: 7/19/2002 3:44:54 PM IP: 80.1.224.5
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Zinjen understands your frustration, but this is not the way (for Current VK student, and VK observer).
One of Zinjens's first sifu was like this, and it was very frustrating. It tuened out that he was not all that good anyway, and Zinjen left for another sifu who was everything a good sifu should be.
If you guys are having problems with your sifu, this forum is not the place to air them. This achieves nothing but create mistrust in your class with other students - e.g vt watchdog, and this is not a good environment for learning ving tsun. It will not achieve anything else, it will not make your sifu change. Anonymous postings on this forum will certainly not gain you any respect.
So , if you feel this strongly you have three choice, talk to sifu about it, leave and train elsewhere, or if you really think you will get the best instruction from no one else, stay quiet and learn dilligently without comment.
Zinjen has never met or trained with Victor Kan so is not in a position to say anything else regarding this matter.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Not Clear Date: 7/20/2002 3:29:54 AM IP: 62.128.212.81
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my english is not very good
Could posting done by "kanwahchit" please explain item 3

Are you saying:-
a) that Leung ting finished system with Yip man

OR

b) that Leung ting is saying that V Kan finished system with Yip man? ( if so where did you here that?)

It's just that I thought they hated each other and V kan has a low opinion of Leung tings Ving Tsun and Chi Sao.


Also the last bit :-
who is the better source of information, is it Leung ting

or Rene Ritchie?

thanks.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: kanwahchit Date: 7/21/2002 12:16:34 AM IP: 212.187.250.20
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theres plenty of alternatives.


Vitor Kan: price varies depending on how many lessons per week.
victor kan is the simplest, slow, methodical, but pure wing chun, he hasn't modified much. His class, your left to do what ever you want, end of the lesson, group training of core skills. He will come up to you and teach you a new technique every so lesson (sil lim tao, etc.) till you reach partner training (ie, dan chi, chi sao, pak sao drills) at which point things slow down, and he might not teach you anything new for months. Instead every lesson he'll touch hands with you for two minutes.

Kevin Chan: Kamon wing chun.
Price: 40quid a month


Surprisingly similar to Kan in terms of technique. Class is different. Starts with warm up, then the teacher will tell you what to practise and drill. Modern class type, go from one drill to the next to keep punters happy, drills, applicable self defense. Standards vary.

Leung Ting british wing tsun (or what ever)

Same teacher orientated format, the demonstrates new applicable drill, you copy for 15mins. Warm up first (fitness stuff). Brainwashed teachers going on about their superior system, applications, whatever.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: It Go WANG Date: 7/22/2002 6:31:39 PM IP: 194.82.103.36
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What was it exactly that Rene Richie said about Victor???
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: kanwahchit Date: 7/23/2002 12:10:43 AM IP: 212.187.250.18
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notclear,

question 3, I meant its all hearsay, what they say and what actually happened could be different. I used leung ting as an example because hes notorious for lying.

I'm not saying Kan lies, but that its all to easy to say I learned the whole system from Yip Man. Kan, Wong shung leung, william chung, leung sheung, yip man taught alot of people.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: WC-EXPERT-stylist Date: 7/23/2002 5:50:04 PM IP: 194.82.103.40
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VK does not teach Chum Kil until a student has passed his/her black sash test. This could be after anywhere from 3-5 years of training. That is 3-5 years of nothing but basic techniques, Sil Lim Tao and Chi Sao.

I don't care who you are or what you say, if you don't find that excessive your either lying to yourself or your not right upstairs.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragon head Date: 8/1/2002 12:12:13 AM IP: 212.38.183.45
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wing chun is simple art ment to be learnt fast but vk teaches it so slowly how can any of his students defend attacks the speed he teaches at you might as well learn sculpture ,his top grades are black belt who get beaten by low grades ,vk only tells he never physically adjusts people fall into the fantsy world of vk some for years some for decades at the end with low level of skills.
e warrior stop sending bloated mail ref vk abilaties concentrate on your own path.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-warriror Date: 8/3/2002 6:14:56 PM IP: 80.189.7.112
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Like a lot of people you're using the fact that VT is simple and quick to learn as an excuse to skip the skill part. I don't won't to just learn the system. I want to master it.

VK's students do not lack skill just because they haven't finished the system. It's mastery of the techniques you do know which determines your skill.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 8/4/2002 7:20:27 PM IP: 212.187.250.18
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Good for you e-warrior, but chances are kan will have passed away before you "master" the system.

Learning and mastering are different things. You learn the sil lim tao, then you move on to dan chi say. You haven't mastered the sil lim tao, but your still learning new skills.

I ask you this, how can you master wing chun if you dont know all the 4 forms hand forms. Martin cannot master wing chun just repeating the basics. 20 odd years martin has been learning, much longer then kan was taught his wing chun. It does take time, but Kan is excessive unless you have the money. Martin doesn't have the money, poor guy is helping VK for free last time I was there.

Tell you what, when your in class, ask the black shirts who has learnt the bil jee. I would bet its the guy who paid $ for it.

>It's mastery of the techniques you do know which determines your >skill.

I would say its mastering the concepts which determines your skill.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragon head Date: 8/10/2002 6:47:50 PM IP: 212.38.183.45
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skill is not enough and its not about doing the same drills for decades soon you to move on and apply it in real or do some sparring so you can see how it works for you in real you will get one chance for this reason if have not leaent the 2nd form you better start now or buy a video ,the 2nd form is important and it will free your statute gung fu your so proud of and if your lucky may improve yourself.
on top of this if dont know the full system you limit your self in aoutside situation also if you dont progress you stagnate in every thing all the best all you v.kan wing chun WANABEES.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Teacher Date: 8/10/2002 9:19:52 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Kanwahcit what nonsense are you talking about?
In your story in part 5 you say your Sifu Kan practice a hard form of Ving Tsun !!!
There is no such thing,are you sure you are learning Ving Tsun?
You wide eyes don't you do any reasearch of your kung fu style before you start it ?

1.DID YOU KNOW VING TSUN IS A STYLE STARTED BY A WOMAN ? Y / N
2.DID YOU KNOW YOU DO NOT FIGHT FORCE WITH FORCE ? Y / N
3.DID YOU KNOW YIP MAN WEIGHED BETWEEN 105lbs AND 120lbs? Y / N
4.DID YOU KNOW YIP MAN COULD CONTROL VERY STRONG AND LARGE
OPPONENTS WITH THE GREATEST OF EASE USING SOFTNESS WHILST
DOING CHI SAU,EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SLIM Y / N
5. CAN A WOMAN OVERCOME A MAN USING STRENGH Y / N

From what you say you must have been there for at least3-4 years and reached a quiet a high level but in all that time did you not question why you were wrestling ?
If your classmates are sweating during Dan Chi and Chi Sau
then they are not doing it properly .
This is not authentic Ving Tsun and the person teaching it is
doing you a great dis service.
I do not know where this hard form of Ving Tsun originates from but it certainly was not from Yip Man's school.
Westling would not have been tolerated,low level students like that were thrown out.
Don't show your ignorance of Ving Tsun by talking of this nonsense.
It makes me so angry when people do not reasearch the subject they are about to study, especially if they are going to do it for several years.
Sorry if my english is bad and good luck in your training.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Concerned Date: 8/11/2002 9:56:10 PM IP: 62.128.212.81
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E-warrior try to think before you send E-mails like your Myths concerning Vk . Are you stupid to send something like that or have you got something aginst sifu kan.
I go to sifu kans school because it has got a good reputation but your e-mail has made a laughing stock of the school and everyone is taking pot shots at the school and sifu kan.
Before you listed those 12 points , somepeople might have only known about 3 or 4 of the points or even none of them. But now they know all twelve.
I know sifu kan has friends at the VTTA who run the forum,can't he get someone to delete this Myths about Vk e-mail before more people slag him off or prove that he did not finish the system with Yip Man etc.Actually what makes it even worse is that ex-students and current students are also slagging him off.Normally it's outside scholls that slag each other off and they can be dismissed as just bitching.
Otherwise whatever sash we achieve at the school(at considerable financial cost and time)will be worthless and our ving tsun would not be recognised by the Ving tsun world when we start teaching.
Many thanks and try to think before you get your on guard up at the keyboard.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-warriror Date: 8/13/2002 4:55:19 AM IP: 80.189.8.116
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Chung: If Sifu Kan dies tomorrow, although I'll mourn the passing of my Sifu, I won't be too concerned over my Kung Fu education. His top students are quite qualified to teach me what I want to know.

The second paragraph seems a bit odd since you seem to be agreeing with me. It is true that just because you've learnt SLT and then moved onto something else does not mean you've mastered SLT. But that's what I was saying. It will take years for the student to master this or any form. Just because you've completed something, whether a technique, form or the entire system, does not mean you are master of it.

For your info there are only three hand forms. "Hand form" means empty hand and the dummy form requires a bit of equipment. It is not necessary to know everything in the system to master it since you master techniques you learn as you progress through the system. You don't learn everything and then proceed to master it. As for Martin Bell, his knowledge is the kind of thing I'm after. Many times, people who have completed the system have stuck hands with guys like this and then been taken to bits with just the very basics you people keep deriding. And please guys, don? keep on about black shirts not knowing Bill Jee unless they pay for it. I know all this.

No it? not the concepts that constitute your skill. It's their physical application. Kung Fu IS a physical activity after all. You can master the concepts all you like but without endless practice it won? mean a thing.

To WC-Expert-stylist: you learn the second form in the seventh grade at VKCVT. The black sash grade is grade 8 onwards so you're just plain wrong. You can easily verify this by phoning the Grandmaster or one of his instructors. As for 3-5 years of 1st form and chi sao being excessive, it's those who think it should be less that are wrong up stairs.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 8/15/2002 12:33:25 AM IP: 195.92.67.71
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His top students are qualified to teach you up to a point, you'll have to go else where to master the system like u want.

Second paragraph argeeing with you? Good. I'm not trying to negate your every word for the sake of it. I'm sure we have more in common.

I referred to 4 hand forms including the dummy, you get my point anyway.

I dont deride the basics. They are fundermental, and should be practiced throughout your wing chun training. My point is simply, you proclaim their greatness, but not knowing the other forms/concepts and intergrating them into their wing chun will stop their progress.

I'm not against martin bell in anyway, he is a great guy and a great teacher. Again, my point is why Kan hasn't taught them the Bil Jee + plus whatever else he doesn't know after 21 years with him. So you know black shirts have to pay alot to learn bil jee, whilst Martin, after all hes done for Kan, 21 years later still doesn't know it. It says something about Kan.

Your point on concepts verses physical technique is valid unto you.
Mastering the concepts involves physical practice, yin and yang, they go together. But just doing a textbook bong sao means nothing. Like wise knowing the concepts without application is not knowing the concepts.

Happy Training
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 8/15/2002 12:44:38 AM IP: 195.92.67.71
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Dragonhead,

Kans wing chun is very much "wing chun" sheilded from the outside arts. This maybe a good or bad thing.

It doesn't add, substract, I believe its one of the closest you'll get to Yip mans version. His training is basic, and you repeat it till hes satisified you know it. Now that could mean 2-3 years before chi sao (double handed). Its still every much a drill to get used to the movements, followed by adding slowly one attack/defend movement. This can take anywhere from 2 years plus. Then you get to learn the Chum Kil.

Before I get shouted at, I'm not putting down this way of teaching. For what its worth I think its good and compared to the crap out there, damn good. But it takes time (excessive) and money (expensive).

But since doing MMA, its opened my eyes to combat. Before I get multiple opponent comments. I'm stating duelling, with both parties knowing what their in for, like Pride K1, UFC.

Kan wing chun is not application based. No sparring, no real conditioning, no freestyling hehe. Its an accurate portrail of his bio where he states that unlike wong shung leung and others who regularly fought challenge matches he prefered to stay in and practice.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 8/15/2002 12:50:28 AM IP: 195.92.67.71
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Freedom of speech. Although I hope you dont give him some beats at VKs classes hehe.

Its a little debate on a small forum, its not going to mean much. Chill out. I for one think Kans wing chun is good. Just his personality is very questionable. Haven't been a student for 5 odd years.

Your sash is worthless outside, your knowledge isn't.

Wing chun world? Its not what others think, its what you can do. Your wing chun and character reflects.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 8/15/2002 2:20:16 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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What he said was that " He knows that Victor Kan did not finish the system under Yip man. He trained mostly with his sihing,Alan Cheung."
His chinese name was Ah Cheung and I think he was taught by Yip Mans first disciple Leung Sheung.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 8/17/2002 12:35:27 AM IP: 212.38.183.45
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i am sorry but idont see i to i if after 5yrs u should be on the 2nd form in 10 yrs finished every thing cos their are tomany schools out their and no more secrets to hide but uv fallen for the sucker blow by doing the same thing over and over ,but this does not teach u to defend ur self cos if ur master teaches u7things they better work or u wont be so magnificent.
u need to spar so u can change ur angle and get ur distance with this u can escape all but a few attacks the only time u block is when ur stuck no movement.also blocks can cause injury while in action,is it correct ur master has not finished the system under yip man but some one else if so this wud hint wy seniors leave and who is this poor soul of 21yrs cant defend him self off yellow belt
please reply all the best victor can heros.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: ex Date: 8/17/2002 3:50:42 AM IP: 195.92.67.76
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Zinjen, I can say what I like, what r u a facist demanding I keep quiet? I dont put up with it, so I'm not going.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: kanwahchit Date: 8/17/2002 4:14:12 AM IP: 195.92.67.70
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Replying to Teacher:

What nonsense am I talking about?

1. Could be a myth, could be truth, who knows.
2. ??
3. Dont know his weight
4. Wasn't there
5. If the women was a bodybuilder and the guy was scrawny.

Yeah everyone whos ever done chi sao till they are sweating got it wrong. Maybe you learn from a genetically altered teacher who does not sweat.

Hard form of yip man? I'm talking KANWAHCHIT not YIP MAN. Are you saying that everyone who learnt wing chun from yip man is practising exactly the same non hard wing chun. I hope you know the irony of what you are saying.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 8/22/2002 4:10:02 AM IP: 80.189.5.50
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I was a VT instructor before . We always got students like you lot, coming just 2 or 3 times a month then turning to criticism. They pick up the form's name and some movements from Wing CHun books and videos and they thnk they know better than the instructor and expect him to teach what they want in their Wing Chun fantasy dreams.

Many instructors teach them just for the money's sake. But not with VKCVT schools. They have always had many serious good quality students to support for VKCVT always maintains high standards by cutting the rotten branches off like you guys. No doubt you chaps got kicked out from his schools and could not find any other better Wing Chun schools to go to so you slander him and his school like a long tongue fish woman trying to get revenge. Victor Kan's good reputation is built on rock solid foundations 28 years ago before all WC instructors learn WC in the UK. Things have back fired - you guys just make yourself so ignorant and make him even more well known and respected all over the world. Even I can give you lot, the "WC experts" a basic lesson. Chum Kil is used to bring chi-sao to a higher standard when one's chi-sao is not up to basic level. Why learn Chum Kil? What for? To impress your girl or boy friends? This was the way Yip Man taught Victor Kan. This is the way Victor Kan teaches his students. Any more arguments?
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 8/27/2002 5:37:35 PM IP: 213.208.105.115
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What lineage did you come from? If its kan's school, whats your name? were you an assistant back in 1992-1996?

No one cut off any rotten branches. Alot of people left (especially higher level guys) when they realised Kan was just being a stick in the mud as far as teaching them the rest. I think the best "fighter" Kan had was Garfield, strong and powerful wing chun, he left unfortunately.

As I said before this small forum postings will not affect kan ving tsun in any way.

I think the chum kil form is a foundation for the footwork and bridging the gap. Because I've been doing mixed martial art stuff, for me I feel the importance of bridging the gap and footwork really hit me when the static chi sao (which is simply a game if you will) is put to the test under guys who have been taught from the start how to move.

I'm not expert, I dont know how good or bad my wing chun is, yes victor kan taught me well the basics, it took time and money. but to say you know better then everyone else with a chum kil remark which really doesn't show your knowledge as far as I'm concerned is funny. To impress people? No. To be a better martial artist yes. and I'm not advocating becoming a master within a year.

How do you know v kan teaches the same way yip man did to him?
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jin Date: 8/27/2002 7:10:12 PM IP: 213.1.192.86
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Here,Here
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Refugee from Pascoe's School Date: 8/28/2002 3:00:36 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Dear Victor Kan
I am looking for a new school but need a couple of points cleared up as I just read that last mail and was a bit alarmed.

1. Is Victor Kan finally saying that he was not shown Chum Kil by Yip Man ? and the rest of the system ? ( i.e VK only learnt up to SLT)

You say "It was only shown if the basic chi sau was not good enough, so as to save yourself "
He claims to be the King of Chi Sau so he would not need chum kil,

Am I correct?

I am finally glad that you have come clean with this matter so new students know what they are letting themselves in for.I don't want to end up like some his seniors who have found out few years down the path and then decide to leave.

Could you also please tell me if when Yip Man said to Victor he will not teach Chum kil to him as he does not need it:-

2.Is that when he decided to leave To Study with Leung Sheungs student Ah Cheung?

3. Did he complete the system with this guy Ah Cheung and how long did he train with him? So if I come to your school will I be 12th Generation(Leung Sheung 9th >> Ah Cheung 10th>>Victor 11th >>Me 12th

4. Victor Kan has said on this forum that Yip Man only made them do the stance for 2 Weeks, Yet this guy Ving Tsun says he was in the stance for 3 Months ! Thats a bit too long ?
But I have seen some article where VK said Yip Man made them do the stance for 8 months.The article was in a Kung fu mag,it was written by some guy called "Bey Logan". I don't know if Bey Logan is still doing kung fu with him.
So can you tell me how long you have to do the stance for? I don't want to pay my membership and then find out it's three months or even eight months?
So please can you tell me how long the stance is practised for ,even though I am a senior at Pascoe's I know I have to start at the begining with a yellow belt which I don't mind as I am very humble.
Victor or VT Watchdog Could you please answer these questions for me and some of my mates who are thinking of coming to your school.

Thanks.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Tip Date: 8/30/2002 4:35:37 PM IP: 195.112.34.221
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Refugee,

I wouldn't consider the lineage that much, whether your 10th, 11th, he was taught by Ah Cheung, Yip man, whoever. Go to his class, see if you like what he is teaching and the atmosphere.

I know victor kan knows all the hand forms, I've seen him practise them.

Chi sao is not the end all, be all. Even if he was the best at chi sao, he'd still need to learn chum kil. All this King of Chi sao is used in his marketing. Remember Kan held a big height and weight advantage to most of his fellow students. He's big for a chinese guy - those are natural advantages even in things like chi sao.

I dont know much about the Ah Cheung situation, e-mail Rene for more info. When studying at Kans I always assumed he learnt everything from Yip man, no reason to doubt that really.

U wont be in the stance for months. One or two lessons max I would think. Then you'll start learning punching etc.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT Student Date: 9/2/2002 5:59:30 AM IP: 80.189.8.249
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I remember you now CHUNG. You were the young boy who came once a week for a few months then left just after starting the Sil Nim Tao. I started the same time with you over 2 years aog. I now doing double chi sao in the 6th grade. I am very confident and happy.

In your second lesson, you asked Sifu Kan if you could do FREE fighting which made use all laugh. Sifu Kan Patiently explained and showed you some simple moves over 6 or 7 times and you still could not grasp it. If I were him, I would have kicked your silly arse out. It was just unfair that you were wasting the other student's time in the class.

For your information, Wing Chun has only 3 hand forms, not 4. Do not mix it up with your wanking hand form.

Garfield is good like many others but Kevin Gledhill is better. However you try to get information from this forum, you won't get a free lesson from VKCVT, you cheap bugger. Stop pretending you know anything about W.C. Go wank yourself.

VKCVT's worst student is better than other wing chun schools best. You have tried the rest, now try the best. Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Martin Bell Date: 9/2/2002 6:01:18 AM IP: 80.189.8.249
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Hi Pasco Refugee.. You sound sincere and serious but badly misled from this lot of ?ing Chun experts?in this forum.

- It is really absurd to hear from you that Sifu Victor Kan only learnt up to Sil Nim Tao (SNT not SLT). Have some sense! Please visit his website www.vingtsunvk.com.
- My god you got completely mixed up. It was Leung Ting after he was kicked out from Leung Sheung? school and then went to his student Cheung Buk ?h Cheung? to continue learning Wing Chun.
- In VKCVT school it takes one lesson one and a half hours to practice the basic stance or you will get your money back not 3 bloody months of nonsense.
- Once you join VKCVT school with Sifu Victor Kan your generation will be automatically upgraded to 10th, same as Pasco. VKCVT school welcomes you all when you are ready.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Kanwahchit Date: 9/6/2002 2:48:14 AM IP: 195.112.34.97
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What does generation matter?
10th, 11th, 12th ...1st, 2nd, 3rd,
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Johnny Blaze Date: 9/7/2002 8:38:52 AM IP: 64.175.243.203
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There is only one WC grandmaster: Chris Chan.

http://www.modelswatch.com/
showcase/models/chrischan/

You been rolled---soon to be smooched.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 9/8/2002 11:21:40 PM IP: 62.128.212.81
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Don't try to be clever,It is SIL LIM TAU. I 've got the book SIL LIM TAU by Master O'Neal.He's a disciple of GM Ip Ching.They should know.
So don't be such a silly twat.I suggest you and your master Kan buy the book and learn how to spell SIL LIM TAU and then read the book.
Not only is Kan teaching you incorrect Ving Tsun but also incorrect Chinese . I will not tolerate bad spelling as SIL LIM TAU is the ABC of Ving Tsun.
He should be teaching you kung fu not chinese.Same goes for that twat Pasco going on about what sifu means and about cantonese instead of why he left.You lot are white not chinese are you having an identity crisis,all this bowing and tea and sifu,sihing etc.
What the hell is going on at that school.Just answer the questions and accusations,you got more important issues to answer than spelling. You twats.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: WC Instructor Date: 9/9/2002 3:48:11 AM IP: 80.189.8.88
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I agree with you Watchdog. I always have these from this forum in my school. They get more enjoyment by wanking themselves in front of the keyboard than practicing Kung Fu in the gym. They are nothing
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Kanwahchit Date: 9/12/2002 4:28:38 PM IP: 213.208.105.91
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Your angry comments betray you WT instructor of no name and no lineage haha.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 9/13/2002 6:57:34 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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VK Observation to 31st August 2002:-
In the months of July & August Sifu Kan has been alot better in his behaviour towards his students.
He has not gone into a full rage and given someone a lashing with his tongue.
Well done Sifu Kan . Keep it up,but there is still alot of room for improvement.
Martin Bell is still several belts ahead of you when it comes to conducting himself in a firm but polite manner. I suggest you keep an eye on how he conducts himself and you too will earn the respect and gratitude of all your students.

Sifu Kan you have'nt got any pets have you? Thats probably why you treat Martin Bell like a dog.So Sifu Kan could you please not abuse Martin bell when he is putting up the Wooden Dummy as I think it effects his performance.I think he will put it up faster if you were not harassing him or making out you are so clever and can do it faster.This also applies to when he is dismantling it.Hearing your voice in that tone really gets on my nerves.Martin Bell is one of your students and so falls into my Observation area and Observation report.Whether or not he is a paying for the lesson is irrelevant to me.You can't treat him like a dog as he is getting the lesson for free.
But forgive me and correct me if this is part of his training as a senior and you trying to make him more humble.Are all seniors treated this way as their kung fu improves and become more powerful,in cas they become arrogant,and big headed? Is Martin Bell arrogant & bigheaded? Is this the Wing Chun Dog Form?

Replies to:-
Current Vk Student- Many thanks for your support and I hope your training is more enjoyable now.You are mistaken about me speaking to you,I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am.I will mind if you make Observations as I can do it perfectly by myself.Thanks anyway.So don't write about it.Thats my job and my mission.
I always write the truth about what I see and hear.

I always work alone,I am no team player . I observed in the past all teams have a weak link and when things reach critical mass the weak link will show itself and sing loudley and the other team members will be detained unnecessaraly.Thanks for the offer.I hear and see everything that goes on at the school and there are several students there who talk far too much.

Zinjen - keep your nose out of my schools business,you don't even train here so how could you know?
I am not the only one complaining as you can see from reading some of these postings.In fact after reading all these postings I am wondering if Sifu Kan is turning out like your first sifu.That does not concern me at this moment in time, but it will later.Only his senior students have to worry about that and only his ex-students can answer that.
By the way I was not cowering when he was telling that girl off, in fact some really bad thoughts were going through my head,one after the other,faster and faster.each scenario with an action and a result,faster and faster. Just stay off here. Stop.

e-Warrior/VT Watchdog/General Scratch/Not Clear/VKCT Student:-
I know Sifu Kan and you are all the above people.I often see Sifu Kan and you, going over these prints of these postings after the lesson.Sifu Kan writes all of them and you put them on the forum.So when any of the above write anything I know it's Sifu Kan thats having a go at me or someone else.
I feel sorry for you having to put up with his rantings and ravings .He has to edit and scrutinize every word.Well done for having so much patience.I hope he is showing you some secret techniques for what you are doing for him,a free lesson, or a free t-shirt.I bet it takes up a lot of your time and god forbid if you make an error (like point 7, you left out "King of" Chi Sao)Tut,tut. Or did you do it on purpose because you don't believe he is the King of chi sao and could'nt bring yourself to write a lie like that? .Did he try to chop your nuts off with the butterfly swords for that(with the blunt edge)?
I still go there as the school is near to me and I done some Martial Arts before and all I want to do is to do a couple of moves ,look at myself in the mirror,punch the bag,a bit of stretching ,have a chat.I want to do that in peace without some prick mouthing off and shouting.Is that too much to ask ? I paid enough for my night out,can't I just enjoy it.What are you lot trying to do to me?
I was thinking of leaving as the evening lessons start far too late(7.30pm) and by the time the lesson starts I am really hungry.By then some really bad thoughts are going through my head and I have'nt even heard Sifu Kans annoying voice.So try to start the lessons at 6.30pm.
Also don't talk about the school as if it is a University becasue I will set up a student union if you do. As some students have mentioned starting up a student union.
You say "Once found out,you'll be kicked out". Well I am not scared. I don't care how many belts Sifu Kan,You.Martin Bell and anyone else that wants to ruk have,it won't help you against me.
"When found out" Will I have to fight my way out of the school,taking out as many students as I can like in the films.Alright,rock and roll!
Where do you keep the Butterfly Swords?Because if you are as mean as you make out you will probably attack me with them ? I looked for them in class,are they around the back?

Kanwahchit -I am not a hard man. I just absorb the abuse because I know payback day always comes around and I will always catch you by surprise.

Dragonhead - You are a funny guy,read your posting 17/8/02,it made me laugh,are you Chinese or were you taking the mickey.? Anyway you know a bit about fighting but do you still go to Sifu Kans school in Lambeth.You let it slip 13.7.02 "he admitted in class that he could not teach anymore " which means you were there.You must have some axe to grind with Sifu Kan.Tell me what he did to you to get the axe out?
Tell me what you mean about Sifu Kan going for refresher courses in the USA. Who is it with,which Master?He must be good.?

Anyway there are some very interesting questions being asked and some very interesting talk of techniques and methods.Some of you guys out there know your Wing chun.But some of these questions are not being answered and incorrect observations are being made, so I will observe a little while longer before I make my comments.

Next Observation Report at the end of September 02.
So all Sifu Kans students hang on in there ,things can only improve.
Thank you for your patience.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT student Date: 9/16/2002 4:05:50 AM IP: 80.189.6.178
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INTWERPRETER - I am Cantonese from Hong Kong. The peasants and uneducated people from Canton Province pronounce it Sil Lim Tao (SLT). The official and educated pronounciation is Sil Nim Tao (SNT), similar to "the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain". You read one Wing Chun book and you think you are a Wing Chun Expert. What a peasant!
GM Victor Kan is Yip Jing, Yip Jung's Senior Kung Fu brother or "Si Hing". Yip Man told them to continue to learn Wing Chun from him after his death. So GM Victor Kan is O'Neal's Kung Fu uncle - "Si Bak". Check it out from Hong Kong! Most probably, O'Neal learnt Wing Chun incorrectly from Yip Jung who is well known for that. You have no respect for Chinese tradition and culture. You are nothing but a dick head like the others! VKCVT school is the most genuine Wing Chun school in the world, established since 1975. It gives free information about Wing CHun history since Yip Man moved to Hong Kong. Please visit and verify - www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 9/16/2002 4:06:44 AM IP: 80.189.6.178
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Generation is very important in any Kung Fu style because from one generation to the next, each time there is the danger that some of the authenticity of technique will be lost. Therefore, the older the generation, the more genuine the instructor is.

Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: SunFist Date: 9/17/2002 10:52:40 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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Someone mentioned Kevin Chan. If you live in London or near to London Mr Chan is the best option for good Wing Chun.
He has very good technical ability and does not hold back any information from his students. He ia always wanting to help his students progress and go forward in the true Wing Chun way.
He uses his Wing Chun for real and nos what does and does not work.
Go and see him. He is the best in my opinion.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT school Date: 9/19/2002 6:06:08 AM IP: 80.189.7.91
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There are many other modified Wing Chun schools. The instructors have learnt a different lineage of Wing Chun for a while and add some movements from other styles then claim to teach Wing Chun (a mixed-up Wing Chung. A COPYCAT).

The worst kinds are the imitation or the Wing Chun look-alike ones. They pretend to teach genuine WC and temp the novice to join them by saying one can learn a lot in a short time. Avoid it.

For verification visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bruce Forsyth Date: 9/20/2002 11:23:46 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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If you don't know why generation should matter you should not be doing kung fu.You should be learning at home from a video or even a book instead.
I will give you an example:-
A person sees an accident or even a fight.He then goes and tells his friend about it.His friend in turn goes and tells his friend,who then in turn goes and tells his friend,who in turn also goes and tells his friend.
By the time the story has reached the fifth person(or even the 10th,11th or 12th person ) it would have changed greatly from the original .It may be made to sound more dramatic or some important points may have been missed out.
So in the same way if Sifu Kan was not taught by Yip Man or Leung Sheung or Leung Ting but instead was taught by one of Leung Sheungs students then along the way the system may have been changed by one of them,or even changed by Sifu Kan himself.So the system you are learning is not original Yip Man Ving Tsun but a modified version.It may not be as efficient or effective as the original.
From some of the comments I have read from Sifu Kans students on this forum,they are not happy with it.Does it lack combat effiencey.

Can any of his students past or present comment on any differences they have noticed in Sifu Kans Ving Tsun and that of Yip Man, Wong Shong Leung , Lok Yiu, Leung Ting ,Yip Ching etc which in your opinion makes Sifu Kans Ving Tsun enefficient.

I like the old Star Trek to the New Generation.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: James Date: 9/21/2002 9:20:01 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Intwerpreter
What you got to understand is that a lot of Kans seniors like Pasco had trained with him from a very young age.They have been abused for so long they still can't speak out against him.They have been throughly brainwashed.They are still scared of him and would still lose out to him in a fight.So this is why some of them beat about the bush(eg.Pasco,kanwahchit,dragonhead,ex,WC expert etc.) instead of getting down to the facts.
But some of this new breed are not scared and have no respct for anyone or anything.They are out of control.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jew Jitsu Date: 9/23/2002 7:28:16 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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what is wrong with learning kung fu from a book or video?
If you cannot afford the lessons you can only go a few times a month,whats wrong with that?
Students have kids and family to feed first and if any spare cash left then feed Master and his family.

Every one on this forum is complaining Mr Kan will not teach them Chum kill,dummy, and Bill gee.To those complaining may I suggest
you get the video for Chum kill,dummy and Bill gee and learn it from there.It's not very hard.Several masters have these forms on video and it will cost you alot less than with Mr Kan (?0 for private lesson x 50 Lessons per form and someone said here earlier ?0,000 for Bill gee).That's a lot of money whereas a video will only cost ?0 at the most.You can play video anytime with no abuse or any delay due to conning.
All you have to do is practice,practice and more practice.

If you cannot afford weekly lessons then may I suugest you get together with another poor student or students from your school and train at home.
You will find that you can do nearly everything you do in class in your own frontroom at no cost.
Why should you pay so much for a lesson (?0-?5) when you are the one doing the moves and the sweating.
So next time you go to lesson ask yourself at the end of the lesson
Could I have done all the things I did in the lesson at home?
If yes,then ask yourself why the hell I am giving this guy ?5.
Not only do you save the cash but you save lots of time on travelling.You can use that time to train more or spend with family.
With that money you save you can:-
1.Go to the cinema
2.Go for a meal with wife
3.Take kids to Mcdonalds
4.Buy Kung fu video
5.Buy kung fu book etc
You will have something to show for it,not just an earful of abuse.
But to those students who like looking at themselves in the mirror and posing around they obviously cannot train at home and must go to the school and pay ?0-15 per lesson.I am sure they think its worth it to look at themselves for 1.5 hours in the mirror.
A very big kung fu secret is that you spend 80% of your time training by YOURSELF( ON YOUR OWN).The other 20% with others.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 9/24/2002 11:07:40 PM IP: 213.1.166.245
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VK observer,I too am a student of Grandmaster Kan I am the Sixth grade who spends a lot of time on the heavy bag(i mention this so that you can recognise me)I am stunned at the cowardly nature of your posts.You do not even have the integrity to put your name to your comments.I train with Sifu Kan on Tuesday,Thursdays and Saturdays so you will not be able to miss me.If you are indeed "up for a ruck" I will be more than happy to do to your face what I do to that bag.I dare you to reveal yourself to me you coward.
David Lomax 6th grade student of Classical Ving Tsun.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Contents Date: 9/25/2002 1:47:08 AM IP: 62.31.32.130
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vk observer,
if Vk is so bad why do u continue to go there? u wanna have a chat do some stretches, join a aerobics class u prick.how can u talk about the guy like that when he is teaching you? you pussy have you got no sense?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ving Tsun Date: 9/28/2002 1:09:27 AM IP: 80.225.197.152
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Go do a sport where instead of having to take some guys word for it that he can fight, or letting him bamboozle you with a superior technique he has practised 116000 times, you can learn your basic skills and have a go man.

Learning VKan Ving Tsun is like being given a well paid job with a nice sports car by a hyperactive tyrant If you scratch his car on your way home out of sheer shock.

Leaving VKan and taking up a sensible sport is a bit like starting up your own business. You do it for yourself and your self alone, and you have to fight to survive.

Any sensible human being would think this a
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 9/30/2002 12:41:34 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Some big lies are being told on this site and its getting on my tits.So lets put the record straight.
James I am not scared of Kan.I just don't want anything to do with him.
Why should ex- students warn new students of what in store for them when they go to Kans.They should find out themselves the hard way,like we did.
I should know whats going on there as I worn the t-shirt ,got abused,ripped off,kept on the same move for months and came nowhere near finishing the system.Sound familiar current students and ex-students.
Where can I start?
Hey you two clowns Chung & e-warrior stop trying to make out you are knowledgeable about ving tsun by talking about concepts and techniques.We all know Kan does not teach concepts and never explains techniques.He just bends your hand or arm ,abuses you and walks off,then comes back and abuses you some more.His English is no good and can't explain anything,so what little he knows he can't even tell you(don't come back and tell me he can speak 6 languages)
This is probably why no one has finished the system in over 20 years of training.
Next why does everyone go on about chi sau as if it is a measure of how good your fighting ability is in a sparring situation.
Being good at chi sau does not mean you will be good at sparring.Has that gone through you thick clown heads,good chi sau does not equal good fighter.
That black sash Martin Belle is a good example of this.Everyone talks of his good chi sau and everyone makes out he's Yip Mans sucessor.But when he sparred with other black sashes with less chi sau ability than him,Belle was always left wide open and could have been finished off several times if it was a real encounter.By the way all those people who speak highly of Belles ving tsun abilities are no friends of his.They should tell what they see instead of giving the guy false hope just because he's been there 20 years.You lot are kind(I think he's a nice guy)but it's not right.
I knew something was very wrong at that school when I used to watch the seniors sparring.There was no Ving tsun move in sight and it looked more like karate.A kick here and there ,standing on tip toes and punching over the top,circling for ages.When finally a hit was available it was rarely taken.This was all happening while Kan was watching.I've done a bit of fighting and what I think was missing was timing,rhythm and footwork.Kan would interupt every now and again and say a move would not have worked and show a counter.What he did not realise was that it would have worked at that point in time as the timing was right at that moment.
I don't think Kan knows anything about fighting,timing,rhythm,feints,closing the gap etc.
He's really bad.
Kan is more interested in Artistic content than fighting content.

I learnt a lot about what not to do by watching those guys sparring and listening to Kans bad advice.I thought I was the only clever one but well done to the dozens of seniors who have left to improve themselves when they realised Kan had no fighting experience(noted:Kanwahchit 18/7,Chung 15/8).
Next if he was the king of chi sau,why did he avoid chi sau with taller and stronger students at the school?
I used to notice how these two seniors would pay thier money,the tens and twentys going down each time they came but Kan never chi sau with them.These seniors were very tall and very powerful and with my little knowledge of kung fu I thought kan was not strong enough to handel these guys.Was that the case ?
Or was he just playing with their heads as one of the seniors was visibly upset by this.
Does he still avoid chi sau with taller and stronger students? Can anyone answer that?
Talking of playing with peoples heads,when Kan plays with peoples heads,most normal people walk away.but every now and again he will try it on with someone who's nuts.This is how that whole John Raman thing started.
Well Kans done it again,he's started this guy VK Observer ticking.With so many schizophrenics & mental cases running around ,it's not a good idea.All these nutcases think they are picked on by everyone and Kan makes sure that they are.Not only is he putting himself in danger but all his students as well.You don't know what these nutcases are going to do.
Hey VK Observer ,no disrespcet but are you on any medication or drugs? Are you on day release from Rampton?
Anyway I think what you are doing is excellent .Keep it up.
I don't know why everyones kicking up a fuss,VK Observers telling the truth,thats what goes on at that school and everone knows it.
Normally they don't speak out they just leave.
Also don't take any notice of that guy David Lomax.He's always challenging people.I thought he got banned from the school after Kan entered him for a kung fu competion and he lost.They try to keep it quiet but Kans always entering him for competitions.I have'nt heard of him winning yet.
All the seniors were pissed off as he lost .Lomax had brought dishonour to the school.I know Belle wanted him kicked out of the school and thats probably why Lomax thinks Kans bad treatment of Belle is alright.
So Lomax is a 6th grade now,he must be Kans best fighter at the school to put out this challenge.His chi sau must be good.Well you guys from the other schools out there (stu/ed from scotland etc)who want to try out Kans chi sau ,this is the guy.He can't say no and can be goaded into a fight or chi sau very easily.This will give him a chance to restore the honour of the school.
Next when Kan did chi sau with a student and they try something on him that he has not memorised the counter to after 28 years of rock solid foundation in ving tsun he would go berserk and shout at the student it's not a valid move even though it would have taken Kans head off.Being the king of chi sau I thought he would be able to counter it with his sensitivity.
I know Kans forgetful but thats ridiculous.Being a grandmaster I thought he'd memorise all counters going not just his favourite ones.
Oh those were the days.
Next is this crap about his worst student could beat the best from another school.
Well what happened when one of Kans best Black sash seniors went to Hong Kong on holiday and chi sau with some guy there and ended up in hospital for two days.Our guy got a serious hiding.He left the school.Being good in your school is one thing but being good against other schools or in the street is another.

From looking at some of the cars the seniors drove I guess they could afford to throw money at Kan for lessons,but whats a crime is the time they wasted with him.
They were young,no committments ,could train all day.
That time is gone forever.All the senios that left were leaders,
talanted,they were not scared of training hard,they were fit,fast,sharp and inquisitive.I often wonder how good they would be if they had spent all that time as a student of Wong Shun Leung instead of Kan.
All they wanted to do was learn.You are a disgrace Kan.Telling all these lies about rotten branches cut off etc. when in fact they left and now you are trying to trap new students into the same trap we fell into.
I am glad to get this all off my chest and I feel a bit better for it.
James do I sound like a scared guy.Get the hell out of my face and stop writing about ex-students.We just want to forget.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Kanwahshit Date: 9/30/2002 5:57:14 AM IP: 213.208.105.191
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Dont confuse generation with honesty and respect. Your example is moot since it is not about "copying" an event. Generation is simply a hierarchical matter. Martial Arts is not an "event" to be described in a court of law. It adapts and changes to suit the person.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKs students Date: 10/1/2002 4:43:06 AM IP: 80.189.14.183
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The only reason for us to go to VKCVT is to learn the most authentic and best Ving Tsun on earth from Yip Man? best student ?Grandmaster Victor Kan. We have done full and thorough research on him. There is not one single doubt about it. We are NOT INTERESTED in what he looks like, how he runs his school, what his temper is like, how he dresses or what he likes to eat and drink.

We will criticise him only if he stops teaching what he preaches - not how he teaches. The rest is not our business. This is final, ladies and gentlemen.

To Verify visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 10/4/2002 10:00:53 PM IP: 213.122.57.52
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Old Timer have some balls and put your name to your posts.You have got me confused with someone else as Grandmaster Kan has never entered me for any competitions as he rightly believes they are a waste of time and energy. I have independantly entered one competition in 1998 hosted by R. Lemas which I won. I found this experience worthless and have since never felt the need to enter one again. Get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off again as it seems you evidently have no idea what you are talking about and therefore your opinions on Ving Tsun and Grandmaster Kan are ultimately worthless. My challenge to VK Observer still stands.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Current VK Student Date: 10/6/2002 1:04:41 AM IP: 217.45.22.202
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I got the message VK Observer.It's all yours , it's your baby.
But if you get kicked out let me take over.
In the meantime well done and keep up the Observing.I am stunned at the depth of your observations and the truth in them.

A message to David Lomax , you are the coward not VK Observer .He's telling the truth as it happens,got a problem with that.Are you stunned that someone has spoken out and told the truth.when one person has done it others will follow.

In fact you are a coward on two counts.

Count 1-You coward why don't you take the abuse like the rest of us instead of trying to get into Kans goodbooks by slagging off VK Observer.Can't you handle it? Are you hoping Kan will give you an easy time .Are you to good to be one of us .You are scum . When I get to 6th grade I certainly won't be training with you.I won't be training with you at all.
Count 2 - While the rest of the 6th grades are at the other end of the gym sweating pints doing that grappling thing , and trying to knock each other out you are hiding for most the lesson hitting the bag.Most the lesson you punch the bag not even breaking sweat and punching the bag high where it is soft and makes the most noise ,then you look to see who's looking at you and then once at yourself in the mirror and back to the bag for a couple of more punches. If you are such a hard man go and train at the other end of the gym doing that grappling.
Everyone in the gym knows who the coward is.
Also what if VK observer is a girl,are you going to punch her you prick.See how long you last if you did that.
Plus I think VK observer is being soft on Kan,but if I start observing I will put down everything that goes on there.Word for word.I am in such a rage you are trying to make out he's making it up. I can't wait.

VK observer can't you get that student union thing up and running so that we can get traitors like this Lomax kicked out of the school.See how long he stays when most of the students refuse to train with him for being a coward and traitor.Or refuse to go to lessons until he's left the school.
Lomax you will be kicked out of the school soon,you scum.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Teacher Date: 10/6/2002 6:34:27 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Free lesson to Kanwahchit

I am sorry I not reply sooner.

From the tone of your reply you are angry with me and whatever advice I give you will not be listened to by you.But I will still try to help you.
I will answer your question first and later two.-The students of Yip Man who did not receive the true transmission(knowledge) of ving tsun will be doing hard grappling chi sau.This is very bad is not considered ving tsun.They would have been thrown out ,or not taught anything new and they leave of their own accord for another school.Yip Man was known for not teaching slow students and forgetful students.They waste his time.
Lesson start:- from your angry reaction I assume you to be bigger and stronger than your classmates and when you chi sau you sweat a lot?You rock opponents in chi sau with over extend bong sau and use heavy flat fook sau relying on strength and weight to block instead of sensitivity.
My advice to you is to think that when you chi sau you are rolling with your grandmother.So please treat your opponent like your grandmother.Be soft as you do not want to be rough as this would result in dislocated shoulder hip or even broken bones for your grandmother.Stick to her gently.You are not to rock her off balance as you roll(tan sau>to Bong sau) or lean in and rock her forward with heavy fook sau as you are no longer scared of getting palmed as it is only your grandmother .Recieve what comes.
Do this for 1 year at least until you have unlearnt hard style.It is very easy to learn mistake but very hard and time consuming to unlearn.
So if your opponent is big and strong you are not to wrestle him.However many times he hit you,you are not to play his game.You play your grandmother game and relax,breathe smoothly,he will not kill you.
So if your opponent is small and weak you are not to intimidate him with your strength ,just stick gently.
You only show your strength when there is a opening,you hit hard and fast(1 second),then think its your grandmother agian.If blocked do not try to wrestle out of it ,just go soft.
Do training like this for long time and your sensitivity will become very good.This type of training is very hard to do because your ego will want to use strength.With big opponent you will want to show you are just as strong and with small opponents they usually have fast hands and when they hit uou ,you want to overpower to make up for embarassment.
I have given you simple instructions to do,but they are very powerful.Just do them.It would take pages and pages to give finer details of soft way.
Answer part 2 - Your Sifu Kan has been mentioned here several times as a big guy by several people.
Big students always adopt this hard style as they can beat thier smaller opponents easily or out wrestle the larger opponents as they are still juniors and lack skill.
The big guys use this muscle strength of their hard style over and over again.You can tell straight away by the lot of sweat.
If it was structural strength then no sweat but juniors not clever enough for that.
They are asked by the teacher to use softness.They use softness when you stand next to them but soon as your back is turned they will revert back to hard style and wrestling.If it is a member of your family then you ask again and agin but not with outsiders.
Often these big guys are arrogant and from what I have read of your sifu kan the word is invented for him.
So teacher will let big arrogant student do what he wants as there is no helping him and not willing to listen to teacher.
So in the end teacher will throw out student or student will leave because he thinks he has mastered everything.But in the end it is always teacher who has last laugh.
Because one day big student will meet someone stronger and as has been mentioned by yourself and others your sifu kan was not only hit in chi sau by his students but he has also avoided chi sau with stronger students.
As your sifu kan is big I thought he would be able to control stronger students with structural hard style but he does not even know that.
I hope this answer your question.
People who have masterd the soft way are very rare as here are very few people who can master their ego, and there are even fewer people who can teach the soft way as it is very copmlex.
You will not have to be told when you meet someone who know soft way.For one who has masterd soft way will stop attack before it started as sensitivity is so good.Also opponent will not be able to stick and opponent will feel unsteady on their feet.It will also increase your power when hitting.
It is boring to watch chi sau of soft fighter as there is not much action and you think it is fixed when opponent fly 10 feet when hit by soft slow hand.
So I have seen a couple of idiots who have been writing on here saying that being big is an advantage in ving tsun and chi sau.
You are wrong. It is a BIG DISADVANTAGE. They do not know anything about ving tsun.
I suggest you go and find the smallest ving tsun teacher you can.They will show you the true way.They would have to rely on skill and technique instead of size and strength to defeat opponent.(good example-Yip Man,WSL,TST,Lok Yiu,Jim Fung etc)
This is a good starting point for learning ving tsun.
So go find new teacher who has finished and truly understand system,learnt from reputable master.Thank you.
Hope this help you.
Good luck in you training.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKs students Date: 10/8/2002 4:24:54 AM IP: 80.189.8.189
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VK Observer ?if you want to just do a few moves, stretch a bit and look at yourself in the mirror, join a health club.

- If you wish to build up some muscle, join a body building club.
- If you desire to learn genuine Ving Tsun, join VKCVT.

You are one of those who just joins any old martial art school and who is not interested in Kung Fu tradition nor your sifu? background and culture. You don? care what you are learning as long as the instructor sweet talks you.

Victor Kan is a traditional Chinese Kung Fu Sifu with his own character and culture. He teaches and treats all his students alike and views them as students, not as customers. He expects them to train hard so they learn Classical Ving Tsun properly.

Sifu Kan goes to USA every 2 months to give lessons in his US branches, not for a refresher course as you imagine. There is no Wing Chun Master in the world as good as Grandmaster Kan. That good master in the USA is Victor Kan. Why do idiots always listen and believe in other?

Hey, Judas, you are in the wrong place. Why don? you just leave? Don? expect everything has got to change just to suit you. We know why we are here and we get what we want. No way are we leaving VKCVT for some like you. Stop fabricating stories.


To verify visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 10/9/2002 3:16:22 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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lineage is for dreamers and the history men thats what they be if they follow this silly master,self defence is gained from hard training and not who teaches you.
to old timer well done if this man is so the wing chun body should split and discredit him as a fake and a kung fu fake ,all these think hes teaching real kung fu but he could be teaching them any old mish mash style to feed his belly.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 10/10/2002 2:20:11 AM IP: 62.128.212.81
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VK Observer I only got one word to say to you - University.
The Lambeth Branch of VKCVT is the Oxford or Cambridge of all Kung fu Schools.The Lambeth University of Ving Tsun.
I know no one has graduated from the school in 25 years but so what.
I think you are too stupid to set up a student union.Go on try it you stupid bugger.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 10/10/2002 3:58:48 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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are their any seniors inthe vk school onthe 3rd form as i wish to see this form incase my 15yrs in my style fail.
TO VK OBSERVER.well done i hope you finish the system,just like in the movies hey.
TO JEWJITSU,is wondering if you could recmend abook or even a good vidieo on this defunk style.
is it true that vk schools have bouncers at the door and the one soul was beaten senseless by a nother low grade student but what about his lineage and chee sa ,i m a firm beleiver in the unions and would like to join them they are free .
But more importantly this master who is incompetant of the style should be thrown out of the wing chun body all the best to you muppets carry on the lineage and may it be with you at all times
and the sheep may follow their master to promise land.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 10/11/2002 4:15:28 AM IP: 213.1.184.2
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I am sure the readers of this thread will be able to see the pathetic nature of this "current VK students" ludicrous accusations and slander, which are rife with contradictions.

1. I am being called a coward by a person who does not have the courage to put their name to their comments! But as the chinese say: "It is easy to be brave from a distance".

2. The reference to me being a "traitor". I am not the one slagging off our teacher behind his back. This reveals you to be the moron you really are; you pay money to come to a school in which you obviously cannot handle the training! Jealousy is a very ugly thing. I can hit that bag so hard beacause of the way I was taught the Siu Nim Tao, by guess who? That's right, Grandmaster Kan.

Once I find out who you are (and believe me, I will - it is only a matter of time), I will make you pay for the disrespect you have shown my Master.

This will be my last posting on the subject, as I have no desire to waste my time in a childish war of words (I much prefer action). Especially in this case, as I am dealing with someone seemingly incapable of rational thought. So I'm scum and a prick am I? Just wait till I get my hands on you.

- David Lomax, 6th grade student of Classical Ving Tsun.
Subject: Kamon might be the answer to this foolishness Author: Davids Date: 10/11/2002 8:49:21 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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You need to cool down. If you don't like the training where you are, then move elsewhere.
If you're in London, you cannot go wrong with Kevin Chan at Kamon Wing Chun. None of these silly politics - just good Wing Chun from a Sifu that won't hold back info.
Try it and see if you like it. You can only try.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 10/11/2002 9:58:02 PM IP: 81.6.253.20
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Sorry for being a clown Old timer : )

Nice post, enjoyed the read and felt the same way on alot of the points.

I guess we feel like warning these guys. Kan markets himself on lineage, bonified 100% pure wing chun (oops ving tsun), king of chi sao. I good pitch to a student whos looking for authentic martial arts in the commerical chop socky world.

But the negatives are serious(ly funny: depending on your mood)

1. Expensive - Every few months lessons went up a pound
Dont expect to pay normal prices for anything advanced
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 10/11/2002 10:13:21 PM IP: 81.6.253.20
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1. expensive - Goes up by a pound per lesson every couple of months
2. He has serious issues - treating people like crap, changing his teaching just so he can have a go. Very limited patience. Examples have been and can be given.
3. Slow teaching style - IN all honesty it gets slower the higher you get, to "perfect" the techniques.
4. His style is what I would consider "strong" ie. Brute force wins. He was a big chinese guy, no wonder no one could touch him in chi sao when he was training, no one could reach him.
5. He does it, probably will never teach a practical wing chun style. Chi sao is not fighting, practicing palm attack/defense for a year is not fighting and wont make you a better fighter.

Go there if u like going. Personally I had issues with paying for what i considered as little.

Old timer, I talk concepts, what have you, because I can only communicate through typing on this forum. And that is not a challenge request. And I dont consider myself authority on wing chun any much more then I consider my opinions anything other then my opinions, its how we communicate.

Heal the scars from your time at ving tsun, get that sense of humour back heh.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 10/12/2002 6:31:28 AM IP: 80.189.10.245
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Bruce Forsyth:
Grandmaster Victor Kan is a direct disciple of Yip Man from the early 1950?. Check it out in any Wing Chun Book;s ?C family tree?or ?oots of WC? Please do some simple home work. VKCVT is the original version. VKCVT is the effective version. Read my response to ?ld Timer?and judge by yourself.

Old Timer:
Oh my god! Another old cut off rotten branch seeks revenge by making up bad stories about Sifu Kan. Surely there will be more to come. Maybe that? one of the ways how GM V Kan keeps his school? standard high all the time. Since 1975 old students graduate (7th grade) and leave. New students come.

- Any WC practitioner in the world knows this simple rule ?ood Chi Sau does not equal good fighting ability? No big deal. Did you just find that out?
- You know so much about fighting in your talking, why didn? you open a fighting school and be a master. Blah, blah, blah?
- As for Sifu Kan? student in Hong Kong doing chi sao and ending up in hospital for 2 days. What I heard from other stories is that he died after 2 days. Ha Ha Ha!
- Sifu Kan has many rich students driving BMW, Mercedez, Ferrarri etc. I have observed that he talks more to those with a push bke or an old banger. You are simply jealous.
- Wong Sheung Leung? chief UK instructor was trying to do some recruiting for students and showing off in Sifu Kan? Seminar in 1992. He was beaten comprehensively by two of Victor Kan? 7th grade students ?Kevin Gledhill and Michael Street. I have seen it with my own eyes ??eeing is believing? Solid proof: W.N Wong Sheung Leung Ving Tsun UK. Find it out yourself in the internet. When Wong found out about this he was very angry with Potter. How could he do such a thing to his favourite Kung Fu brother. This was so disgraceful that Wong lost so much face in the King Kong martial arts circle.
- Wong? chief German instructor Phillip came to London to take Chi Sau lessons secretly to improve his standard with one of Sifu Kan? ex students after Wong? death. He then went back to Germany to show his students how good his Ving Tsun is.
- Sifu Kan told us Wong? nick name in 50? Hong Kong was ?ing of Challenges? He challenged many other styles of Kung Fu and never lost. Wong was unique. No one can copy from him, nor could he teach anyone what he had. Same as a "Born Fighter?like Mike Tyson. We all respect him.
- David Lomax. I never met this guy. He seems to have Wong? nature and instinct (spirit) with Martin? loyalty. Plus with Sifu Kan? supreme Ving Tsun techniques and experience. If he continues to train diligently under Sifu Kan? expert eyes ?wow! He is going to be something.
- Sifu Kan never enters any competitions nor tournaments since he opened his school in 1975. He only teaches his students to defend themselves effectively in any public places when trouble arises, not for tournaments. You are making a very big mistake here by fabricating stories like this and trying to stir up shit between schools. You are a bloody liar.
The feeling of being ?ut off?is terrible. Take a few sleeping pills, try to go to sleep to forget. Poor old bugger!
Subject: Classical Ving Tsun Author: Victor Kan Date: 10/12/2002 6:33:18 AM IP: 80.189.10.245
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Nowadays, students frequently ask to be taught more forms before they have learned the first form ?Sil Nim Tao correctly. They seem to think that the more forms they learn in a short time, the better they will become. This is of course nonsense! It is essential that students learn and understand the first form before progressing, otherwise their depth of knowledge will be shallow and they will develop bad habits. An old Chinese saying is that it is pointless having many knives in one's pocket if none of them cut.

Students come to my club for more advanced training. They say they know and understand all the forms but when they participate in real chi sao, their shallow knowledge shows itself. Their hand positions are wrong, they lack sensitivity and respond too slowly, and they can't block their opponent's strikes. This is the basis of the old saying that one minute's chi sao allows you to determine who is the better performer.

So a correct mental attitude is essential to success. To see whether the student has this attitude, the good sifu will test him and look for humbleness, willingless to learn and perseverance. Those without these characteristics never develop real skill in the system. Remember, one thousand hours of training for one minute's use.

For verification visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT Senior Date: 10/15/2002 4:46:34 AM IP: 80.189.4.113
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Dragonhead ?lineage, generation means nothing to you because you don't care if your mother was a prostitute and who your father was. You must be a DIY instructor completely mixed up in your own Dargonhead. Our school doesn't need bouncers. We don't show off. We just take action. ?eat the bully, help the weak? is VKCVT school? slogan.

To verify, visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Victor Kan Date: 10/20/2002 3:09:42 AM IP: 80.189.5.115
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Nowadays, students frequently ask to be taught more forms before they have learned the first form ?Sil Nim Tao correctly. They seem to think that the more forms they learn in a short time, the better they will become. This is of course nonsense! It is essential that students learn and understand the first form before progressing, otherwise their depth of knowledge will be shallow and they will develop bad habits. An old Chinese saying is that it is pointless having many knives in one's pocket if none of them cut.

Students come to my club for more advanced training. They say they know and understand all the forms but when they participate in real chi sao, their shallow knowledge shows itself. Their hand positions are wrong, they lack sensitivity and respond too slowly, and they can't block their opponent's strikes. This is the basis of the old saying that one minute's chi sao allows you to determine who is the better performer.

So a correct mental attitude is essential to success. To see whether the student has this attitude, the good sifu will test him and look for humbleness, willingless to learn and perseverance. Those without these characteristics never develop real skill in the system. Remember, one thousand hours of training for one minute's use.

For verification visit: www.vingtsunvk.com

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jew Jitsu Date: 10/20/2002 7:10:49 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Dragon Head the videos i suggest you get are Randy Williams.He covers the whole system and explains things very clearly. I got several of his videos.His Ving Tsun is very similar to what VKCVT teaches.

Teacher you really seem to know what you are talking about,can you give any other training tips you may have.I tried some of the things you said and they helped.

Old timer are you saying that all the students at Victor Kans are wasting their time? I am really into kung fu and don't want to waste my time and find out a few years down the road it's all a load of rubbish.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT student Date: 10/20/2002 11:26:01 PM IP: 80.189.4.173
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I have learnt the modified Wing Chun for a year with that self proclaimed sifu, god knows where he came from. He taught me loads of rubbish. Surely he has not got much to hold back. VKCVT is 20% dearer but I am learning the 100% genuine article. I gain so much more. One has to pay a bit more for quality. The inflation rate of the training fee is about 5% per annum in VKCVT school. Not bad at all.

Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Gestapo Date: 10/22/2002 12:32:02 AM IP: 217.45.17.89
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Who is this German instructor Phillip who came for secret lessons with one of Master Kans ex-students? It can't be Phillip Bayer ?
Please get your facts straight, it was Phillip Bayer who easily beat two of Master Kans top students,Garfield Watts and Desmond Spencer.They were so impressed with Master Bayers Ving Tsun,they have now become his students.So why would he need secret lessons,please expalin?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Truth Date: 10/23/2002 3:31:15 AM IP: 195.112.34.20
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21 years training not up to standard, says something about your teaching.

So people should know how to spell every word before they try and construct sentences?

Your line that everyone wants to learn too quickly is mostly true, but you take it to the opposite extreme.

Test a student for humbleness, willingness, perseverence, most importantly money.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 10/23/2002 3:39:08 AM IP: 195.112.34.20
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Teacher:

Did I just read a good post? Great advice.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 10/23/2002 10:12:03 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Observation Report to 19th October 2002:-
Sifu Kan has been bearable but there is still room for improvement.
Attendence in September was poor and some students who really get him fired up were not in attendence,so it was not an accurate observation period.
Next observation report at the end of November 2002
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 10/23/2002 11:32:12 PM IP: 217.45.17.89
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Sorry I have'nt given the observation report for a while,I had problems with my computer.
Lets get down to the business at hand.
Thank you for all your support and best wishes.

Current VK student can you please calm down.And yes you can take over from me if I get kicked out,but please control your rage so you give an accurate observation.Be fair to the guy.I read your report on Loyal Lomax,it was good ,but leave him alone for now as I have other plans for him.
Due to popular demand and a special request from VT Watchdog I have decided to set up the VK Student Union.It came into session on 14th October 2002.Yip Mans birthday 14th October,who says I am not a man of tradition.
VK Student Union Rules and Regulations:
1.No fee for membership to Student Union.
2.Every Student at the school belongs to the Student Union.
3.I am the Chairman
4.When writing into the forum with a Question or Suggestion you are to go under the name "VK Student Union" so you will not be victimised in class.If they victimise anyone they will be victimising all of us.( I have observed that people from our school are asking questions about training on this forum eg.Interested -asking about locking arm in punches.It's sad that these questions can't be asked in class as students are fearful of abuse.So this will provide an ideal solution)
If any student is abused in class ,Student Union members may act on their own or as a group.Which ever is convienient for you.Show the Student Unions displeasure by boycotting the lesson or lessons,depending on how strongly you feel.You can train at home on those days.(refer to Jew Jitsues post last month regarding this matter).
It appears that more students are concerned about whether Sifu Kan finished the system with Yip Man than the abuse.
I don't think it matters if Sifu Kan has not finished the system,as long as he knows more moves than you stick with him.Also half those moves won't work in real life anyway.Just enjoy the stretching.So I think our main priority is the abuse.I welcome the views of the Students - Union on this matter.
Loyal Lomax I don't think that we need to fight.If you turn out like the past seniors,it's a matter of time before you become Disloyal Lomax.You are probably to inexperienced to realise that Sifu Kan is teaching you a load of rubbish,unless of course all the past seniors were wrong and stupid.(refer to Old Timers post,that was a good read).I will give you 2 years before you see the light.So us fighting would be foolish.Let's put it on hold.
I,ve also started to observe Sifu Kans training methods as well as the abuse to see if what Old Timer is saying is the truth.
When I've visited childrens homes there is always a bully at the home,you either join him and get an easy life or fight him.You have obviously decided to join him to get your salvation.I have no problem with that,even though I have always tended to fight bullies.
Every one is different.
In the meantime while you have Sifu Kans trust could you please keep your ears and eyes open in case he lets it slip that he did not finish the system with Yip Man.Every one at the school and outside the school are wondering about this.Keep this knowledge on board until the day you become disloyal.It would be interesting reading.
I am sure Sifu Kan has seen hundreds of Loyal Lomaxes in his time and seen them turn disloyal.So he probably does'nt really trust you.
Also if we put Current VK Students plan into action to boycott lessons until you were thrown out of the school,you would be thrown out of the school before you could even open your stance.
If Sifu kan had to choose between Ten Pounds and a loyal student he would go for the money.Everyone knows it.
By the way try not to hog the punchbag.Because it's very boring for beginners in the first 6-12 months just standing and doing punches etc.The only excitement they get is hitting the bag and you are preventing them from doing that.A lot of people are pissed off with you for hogging the bag.Please don't get on your high horse and make out you are a hard man and start challenging the beginners or make them grovel by asking you to get off the bag.Thanks.
Right I am going to make a tea before I submit this,to have a tea ceremony for the Student Union opening.Pure traditon.









Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: FORUM ADMINISTRATOR Date: 10/26/2002 3:10:48 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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If you are having trouble posting to this subject it is because it has got very big.
PLEASE REPLY TO THE FIRST MAIL BY E-WARRIOR ON 30/6/02.
THIS WILL PREVENT IT FROM BEING REJECTED AS IT WILL NOT HAVE TO SEARCH THE WHOLE SUBJECT AND TIE UP TO THE RELEVANT LINKS.
The further it is from the FIRST POST,the more chance it will be rejected.
In your reply give reference to the mail you are replying to and the date.
Sorry for this fault.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 10/28/2002 2:49:29 AM IP: 80.189.14.237
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Sun Fist/Davids - yeah you can't go wrong with Kevin Chan alright - unless it's good kung fu you're after. There's a poster of him in the window of China Town? Shaolin Way doing the fak sao from the second section of the SNT. Trouble is it's practically down by his belly button.

Chung ?
1. You want things for free. In fact if Kan offered to pay YOU you? still complain. You see the cost of everything but the value of nothing. And the fees don? go up as often as you make out either.
2. I? rather have my sifu moan at me than receive a punch on the jaw on the street ?os I? making mistakes. Twits like you haven? realised that we?e supposed to be doing a martial art (you know, blocking, kicking punching etc.) not ballet.
3. Slow teaching style ?this was answered in my original post (point 1).
4. So he? strong. He wins by sheer brute force? So why does he jump on anyone who tries to force their way in through in chi-sao? Actually, only a mental weakling like you would seek to make physical strength a vice.
5. The opponents of VKCVT know that Kan and his students have real chi sao ability so they attack by deriding this essential part of the system (?t? just an exercise? ?t doesn? make you a better fighter?etc). If chi-sao is so useless, why do we do it? Of course I forgot - you twenty and thirty year olds know better than a four hundred year old boxing system. Oh, and raw experience gained on the street won? necessarily make you a fighter either. By the way, people do spend a long time on palm attack/wu defence but it isn? a year.

Current VK Student ?A few facts might be in order. Lomax is hardly a coward. He does NOT punch the bag near the top where it? soft. And he does do ?hat grappling thing?(chi-sao) along with his fellow 6th grades.

Truth ?if by ?eing up to standard?you mean yours, then we at VKCVT are not prepared to take a backward step in quality by trying to match it. Some people get their spelling wrong, but you get the grammar screwed up as well. As for extreme slowness, Ving Tsun is meant to be learnt in 5 years or so, IF YOU TRAIN CONSTANTLY. Those of us who have to earn a living, can only visit the kwoon so a few times a week. As for money, see Chung point 1 above.

Old Timer ?there are so many things you?e obviously got wrong that it would take me twenty pages to answer all of them so I?l limit myself. Actually most of them were answered by my original points 1 ?12. You?e added some new myths to my original list however. Here they are

13 GM Kan doesn? know how to fight
ANSWER: The two stories I know easily demolish this one. I think the myth arises because he spent most of his time training in Yip? kwoon instead of fighting on the street along with his fellow students. What actually happened was that he waited til he had finished the system before gaining such street knowledge.

The other story is that when he first came to the UK, the Chinese community treated him with distain, because they were unaware of his Martial Arts background. To correct this, he issued, and successfully won, a series of closed door challenges. That? why he? known and respected by most of the old guard in China Town.

Before anyone says that I wasn? there and so how do I know, this is true. But then it? also true of you, so how do you know these stories are false?

14 VK doesn? chi-sao with anyone bigger than himself.
ANSWER: You obviously haven? seen him ?pen up? I have on at least one occasion. His opponent was considerably bigger and more powerful but Kan just played with him like a rag doll in Chi-Sao.

15 He? setting mental cases off ticking by picking on them
ANSWER: It appears he? picking on these cupcakes because, well, they?e cupcakes. These people make their own problems. They don? fit in (VK Observer has admitted as much). That? not my Sifu? fault.

16 He? holding stuff back
ANSWER: A totally ridiculous accusation since Sifu Kan knows he? teaching in the modern world. He wouldn? be able to retain any students whatsoever if this were true.

To everyone else who hates VKCVT, don? keep posting on this thread that you sifu is better at teaching, has got a better grasp of English, can communicate his knowledge better, doesn? have a nasty personality, how many top students have left in the past or some other unimportant trifle. At the end of the day, VKs students keep on turning out to be better at Ving Tsun than most, if not all, of those training at other kwoons with alarming regularity. This is all that matters.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: MI6 Date: 10/30/2002 5:01:20 AM IP: 80.189.15.190
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More Ving Tsun conspiracy and scandal in Germany after Leung Tin and Kernspecht. This German instructor is Phillip Bayer (with one hand) ?an ex-student of WSL. The real story is actually the opposite of what you hear. Knowing Yip Man told his sons to carry on learning top quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan after his death, and after the incident with Clive Potter in GM Kan? seminar, Bayer knew what he was going to do after Wong? death.

In order to promote his own school and avoid losing face he couldn? just go directly to Sifu Kan. The only way out was to come to London to learn better quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan? ex - students Desmond Spencer and Garfield Watts who had stopped training in VKCVT school for over 10 years. Bayer saved a lot of embarrassment. These two POOR old guys were willing to sell their asses and betray their own parentage for a few dollars. They have no pride at all; Bayer paid them to keep their mouths shut. They became his running dogs. He brought them to Germany to bark for him.

In other words he stole GM Kan? advanced Ving Tsun techniques from these two Black Judases to upgrade himself and his school in Germany in addition to telling this fantasy story of beating these two guys easily with only one hand. A perfect set up. Very clever indeed.

How could Bayer or anyone else? Ving Tsun be good by taking lessons from Wong when he visited Germany once or twice a year? Only a fool would believe that.

God save the Queen!
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bad boy bubba Date: 10/31/2002 9:27:32 AM IP: 210.251.192.4
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WTF?

The only fantasy story is the one you jusst made up. You trolls are so funny with your conspiracy theories.

As for the stroy of Yip Man telling his sons to learn off Victor Kan, what a load of crap. Why would he send his sons to learn from someone much younger than they were, that would be a bit embarrassing for them wouldnt you think.

Everyone says that Yip Man sent his sons or some other student to some guy for training......if we believed all the stories then Yip Mans sons must have trained and learnt with a lot of different people.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vu N. Date: 11/1/2002 7:51:35 AM IP: 66.166.50.66
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This is strictly a reply to M16. I do not know Mr. Bayer personally except through a video of his seminar in Italy. He may not have two hands as you stated but his two forearms should be more than enough to handle your dirty mouth from what I have seen. There is much you can learn from forearm WC skills, but I think you rather engage in more meaningless words.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jiu Jitsu Date: 11/2/2002 7:56:28 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Hey Jew Jitsu there is only one Jiu Jitsu on this forum and thats me.Could you get yourself another name before I have to get unpleasant with you.
Before all of you have a go at me,I know Ving Tsun is a load of rubbish,it does'nt work.I only train in it so I can beat you dickheads at your own game,also my brother does Ving Tsun and he thinks he's it.I love showing my bro how useless he is and he ends up on the floor within ten seconds.
Message to Teacher,you don't know what you are talking about.
If GM Kan has modified his Ving Tsun to include grappling he is ahead of his time.Using wrestling moves and grappling moves with strength while doing Chi sao is whats its all about.
Well done GM Kan ,you have taken your head out of the sand unlike many other Ving Tsun Sifus.Jiu Jitsu is the ultimate Martial Art.
It has to be present in every Martial Art for it to function efficiently.

GM Kan I will be coming to join your school in the next few weeks,so I can experience this grappling with my own hands.
Well done,you are ahead of your time.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: ep Date: 11/2/2002 9:07:58 PM IP: 62.253.64.8
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Is VK Observer Matthew, brown sash, as suggested by ANON?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 11/3/2002 7:41:18 AM IP: 213.208.105.236
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To e-warrior,

You sound like a typical Kan student. Believe me I went through that phase.

1. I dont want things for free. But things have value, some people are willing to pay more than others. Some people love Kan like you and pay.

2. That is a lame arguement. What has sifu moaning really got to do with being punched in the face because your making mistakes or ballet? He moans at you because he thinks your doing something wrong, not because your not going to get punched in the face in some hypothetical fight in the future? Kan likes moaning, to me he comes across as slightly paranoid, angry, and inconsistent. so what.

3. Slow teaching? 21 years not long enough to *learn* the full wingchun system. Might I add I said nothing of mastering. Come Black sash, many leave because teaching slows up and character clashes.

4. I wouldn't consider myself weak nor small. I dont consider physical strength a vice, in fact it helps ... alot along with luck. But then again lots of things help. Again what is your point? He jumps at people using strength, so that means he doesn't use strength himself but you just said i'd be mad to consider physical strength a vice? a mental weakling? What?

5. The opponents of vkcvt? "Man, you come right out of a comic book."

400 hundred years of swordfighting got pushed aside for the gun. What I am saying? Purely things change. You think your doing the exactly the same system leung jan did? In fact that 400yr old system is a composite of some 20-50 yr olds learning to improve on the previous. You think wing chun is set in stone, now, today? What changed to say this is pure 100 % wing chun? So Yuen Kay San wing chun is not 100 % pure wing chun because it is different from kans?

Raw street experience will make u realise just how unpredictable a fight is. Wing chun helps certainly, but just because u learn kan wing chun doesn't make you anymore likely to win.

13. Kan doesn't know how to fight is a myth which you can deny because you have two stories?

Old guard in chinatown hey? I can add so much to that gossip, but wont because what I heard are stories to, probably from less biased sources then you heard them from, but still just stories.

16. Again your arguement is baseless, because of the modern world he wouldn't hold stuff back because he couldn't get away with it? Much like con artists I suppose.

I happen to think hes very skilled in chi sao for what its worth but:

e-warrior wrote:
>At the end of the day, VKs >students keep on turning out to be >better at Ving Tsun than most, >if not all, of those training at >other kwoons with alarming >regularity. This is all that matters.

is not a quantitative statement just your opinion.

Remember its like a finger pointing to the moon ...

slap

... dont concerntrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory.

Just keep laughing at Kans.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Anon Date: 11/5/2002 7:42:13 PM IP: 213.122.134.39
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Yes he is and I hope Mr.Lomax will deal with him.The boy could do some serious damage.......
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 11/6/2002 5:15:53 AM IP: 81.6.246.11
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Vk observer, looks like they want to know who you are. I dont know whether this debate is a talking point at kans, but watch out, they wont take to kindly to you talking about Kan in that way and attending classes.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKCVT KF System Date: 11/7/2002 3:35:15 AM IP: 80.189.15.177
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From complete beginner to single Sticking Hands (Dan Chi Sao ?4th grade) takes about 11 months to learn properly based on taking 2 lessons per week. The higher the grade, the more time it takes, just like many other sports. It is easy to learn the basics but hard to become really good at them. Students graduate after completing the 7th grade. One should have learnt more than enough for self defence purposes. Only a few, very serious ones carry on for higher CVT standard (?niversity?. Obviously, this takes time and money.

In the past 27 years, we have had all kinds of students. Once in a while we have ?omplainers?as we call them. They complain and criticise everything for their knowledge in V.T. Kung Fu is so shallow but deep down they know that the only person in the world whom they can learn good, authentic Ving Tsun from is Grandmaster Victor Kan.

Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Sheep Date: 11/7/2002 10:19:03 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Baa -I am one of the stupid sheep that grazes at the Lambeth branch of VKCVT.
It appears we have a sheep amongst us who has dared to bark(VK Observer).Now they are trying to catch him and have the mint sauce at the ready.Once you are kicked out ,they hope we will go back to grazing quietly.
I don't know if you are thick or clever but I hope you realise that they are trying to draw you out into the open and catch you.
Kan is such a coward he's using Lomax as cannon fodder so the attention is taken off him and on to Lomax.
Kan did this when he was having trouble with that nutcase John Rahman,he used Bell as cannon fodder and Rahman with his two brain cells fell for it and took his focus off Kan and went for Bell.
It's a good stratergy,but we want you to stay focused.

I know that a large percentage of people who attend kung fu schools are not very clever and some are thick thugs,but I hope you will not fall for this classic trick.
In fact I hope you don't mind me comparing you with Bruce Lee, in that you have mastered the art of fighting without fighting.You are a classic,the amount of havoc you are causing is unbelievable.

We have no quarrel with you,everyone at the school thinks what you are doing is great,keep it up.We demand a weekly Observation report.
I have thought of a slogan for the Student Union-

LESS TIME ABUSING,MORE TIME TEACHING!

How do you know Bell does'nt like being treated like that by Kan.
Bell might want the whole kung fu package where the master is harsh,and teaching is slow and boring(wipe on ,wipe off,you offended my family,master,challenges)etc,Lots of bowing,tea and tradition,.He might never want it to end,this might be his whole life? So you with your observation you might have spoilt it all for Bell.
It's just a thought?

They are really gunning for you Observer,they have given out leaflets saying theres some spy at the school and to inform on you etc.So watch yourself.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Curious B Date: 11/8/2002 5:47:45 PM IP: 212.137.33.208
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I have been a martial artist for 15 years now. In all this time I would never slag off, or attempt to ridicule any one of my instructors. After all, if someone was once good enough to instruct you, they at least deserve a little respect, instead of being plastered over a public forum.
If you like VK and his methods, learn from him. If you dont then mind your own business and use this forum to discuss techniques or training methods or something.
Just my humble opinion!!!
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Professor Zhong Date: 11/8/2002 8:47:11 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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November 2002.

To/ Mr.Victor Kan

and all the people under his direction and command >
e-warrior/VT Watchdog/M16/Kevin Gledhill/VKCVT Students/plus any others.



I would like to clear up two very important points very quickly.

1.Why do you insult all chinese people by saying we are so direct(30.6.02)to the point that we are rude to everyone.This is not true.You may be but don't condemn all chinese people with that label.
If all westerners read what you say,they may look upon chinese people unfavourably.This could hinder their chances to get jobs etc. and how they intergrate and are treated in the west.

Plus you insult a lot of people from Canton Province(16/9/02)by saying that they are peasants.Would you also say Yip Man Sifus sons kung fu was bad if Yip Man Sifu was alive? And now you insult Wong Sifu by making stories about his Student.It read more like an advert for your school.
What is wrong with you,do you think you are a white man as you have lived in the UK for so long?
I ask you - Please refrain from insulting chinese people in the future.

2.People on this Ving Tsun forum and martial arts in general must realise that in tha age we live in kung fu is not for fighting.It is for your health and well being first and foremost.
In the morning after you have done the three forms,you start the day feeling good and energetic.It lasts the whole whole day and that is how it should be.
But on this forum all I see is arguments,challenges and abuse.
As I said earlier,however advanced you are at kung fu,your chances against a knife,a gun,a hired assasin are very limited.
I am sure some of the arguments on this forum from american students could escalate and end up in a shooting.Even some school children in America carry guns,in Los Angeles for example with their gang warfare.Even Yip Man Sifu with his years of kung fu experience would stand no chance against a teenager with a gun.
Also in the UK it is becoming very dangerous with so many different people living there.

So please focus your kung fu towards improving your health and well being.

A respectful few words to Teacher(6.10.02).I read your word and they are very good advice.
But may I add somethings you failed to mention or make clear:-
a)A student can improve his chi sao more rapidly if he trains with an opponent who is also soft.So avoid people who use strength,they will slow your progress.
b)You forgot to mention Leung Sheung who was a big man but knew the soft way very well,Ken Chung his student is living proof.
c)It is wrong to hit opponent 10ft,you should hit so opponent falls in front of you,so they are within striking range for next attack.
d)No mention was made of the benefits of Sil Lim Tau.
e)You wrote it as if you were speaking to a child and not an adult,so people might not realise how valuable the lesson you wrote was.
f)You could have given more details of the soft way.

To rectify this may I suggest to anyone interested in what Teacher said to read:-

www.wing-chun.nu/ Under-Introduction >> 1.The Soft Force of Wing Chun. 2.A Path to Wing Chun.

www.hawkinscheung.com/ Under - Articles >> 1.Hard and Soft approaches to Wing Chun. 2.Wing Chun as Bruce Lees mother art.

Under - Hawkins Cheung at the bottom of the page >> 1.Hawkins Hong Kong days with Yip Man and Bruce Lee. Read Part 1/2/3/4.

You will find the above articles interesting.Read each article 20 times to understand it.

To all those students who have done reasearch on Mr.Victor Kan may I provide some valuable reasearch of my own to help you? In fact it's common knowledge in Hong Kong.Plus,I am a Professor after all.

Explaining this bit of reasearch should keep Mr.Victor Kan busy,so busy in fact he won't have time to insult chinese people.

Goto:-
www.bawcsa.org/ Under>Bio's>Leung Sheung .Third photo down(Group of 30 people)Double click on photo to Enlarge.
Middle Row/Second from the Right>Mr.Victor Kan.
Plus for general interest>same picture>Front Row/Second from the Left >Mr.Leung Ting.
This class has produced not one but two self proclaimed Grandmasters.

Same picture as above but clearer:-
www.wing-chun.nu/ Enter>Under> Picture Gallery> Picture Gallery 1> at the bottom of the page under Leung Sheung ,fifth photo (Group of 30 people).Double click on photo to enlarge.Middle Row/Second from the Right>Mr.Victor Kan.

So what is Mr Victor Kan doing in Leung Sheungs classes when he claims to have finished the system with Yip Man Sifu?
Hopefully Mr.Victor Kans student reasearch team can answer that one?

Information on Refresher Courses in USA for Mr Victor Kan or anyone else for that matter who wants to improve their sub standard Ving Tsun:-

www.hawkinscheung.com/ Under> Wing Chun. Goto bottom of the page.Photo of Grandmaster Hawkins Cheung attacking Mr.Victor Kan.That is Mr.Victor Kan even though it is not very clear.
It's old policy of Masters to take photos of arrogant students in compromising situations for later use if student disrespects Master.It's like an insurance Policy.

Hope this helps all Victor Kan students with their reasearch.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: KVCVT Date: 11/9/2002 7:24:03 PM IP: 81.6.248.85
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I agree with Vt observer. I'm a grey sash. Thats all I'm saying.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Skinny Tiger Date: 11/9/2002 8:44:32 PM IP: 213.122.0.199
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Sheep-yet another psuedonym of VK observer,comparing himself to the little Dragon!This is obviously a very lonely person with a bit too much time on their hands!What a dickhead!
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: snake Date: 11/10/2002 12:55:53 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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to whom it may concern lomax is the the observer you neednt look
further and not mathew.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Student Union Date: 11/12/2002 9:47:31 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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I find it very difficult to get to lessons at Lambeth on saturdays as there is always some bloody march(hunting etc) or demonstration(iraq etc) or rugby or cricket match going on and tourists in London.And the traffic is always bad.
Could Jew Jitsu give some workout routine that i could do at home?
If anyone says I am lazy,well I am not and I will challenge them?
Normally I just do a couple of centre punches while watching the football.
Is that picture of Master Kan for real?(www.bawcsa.org)Is that our King when he was but a prince and why the hell is Master Leung Ting sitting down and Master Kan standing?Can anyone answer that?
Subject: . Author: . Date: 11/13/2002 2:06:08 AM IP: 62.31.32.130
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the picture show man who is smaller than hawkin chung. hawkin is small and kan is big so how cam it be kan?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: teenager Date: 11/13/2002 2:31:48 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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prof zhong you wrong
you big dong,
what a con you are on,
thats just
a guy called young wong.
you try to be fly
but you just bombed....

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: old timer Date: 11/13/2002 2:55:13 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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I hope everyone is aware this is all john raman
and his rants...he was a script writer who
had to write as different characters???
he still pissed off.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 11/13/2002 10:07:10 PM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Well it appears that the Kan the clown who has been shouting the loudest that he is the real thing is the fake after all.Those who shout loudest are hiding something.
I suspected it and so do half his students.If Kan is so good why are several of his students attending his school as well as other Wing chun schools.A student attending two schools,that can't be right? Even a couple of his seniors have joined the school I am at to improve their chi sao.
See him open up,the only thing i saw was him opening up was his cash box.he does sweet talk the guys in the flash cars,massages their egos and then says you are ready to do some privates at 50 quid a shot.Some guys fell for it.He also makes sure none of the juniors do them over,so they keep taking the privates and keep them thinking they are doing great kung fu.
He tests to see if you are humble by charging you a liitle bit extra each lesson.If you complain you are not humble.
I was not kicked out and I am not a rotten branch.
Get the hell out of my face.End of subject.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 11/16/2002 6:31:51 PM IP: 81.6.242.221
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Whoever wrote the message refering to the picture links is in my opinion mistaken as to who is on those pictures. They dont look like Kan, the Hawkins one is not Kan. He would never allow a picture to be taken of him like that anyway.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Spokesman Date: 11/18/2002 2:48:27 AM IP: 80.189.11.81
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Zhong ?Grandmaster Victor Kan is Chinese from Canton. His mind and thinking are Chinese than most of the Chinese from Hong Kong. He educates his students not only in Classical Ving Tsun but also with some Chinese culture which he greatly respects and is very proud of.

- The Truth: Yip Man? son? Kung Fu is bad as we all know in the UK after attending their seminar.

- GM Victor Kan always respects Wong Sheung Lueng, his favourite Kung fu brother. Actually Wong was insulted by his own students. What you have read are not stories but facts with many living witnesses.

- Thanks for telling us ?uns beat Kung Fu? Only a ?rofessor?can have this kind of knowledge ?so smart.

- One thing you are absolutely right about ?the guys in this forum have nothing better to do than talk rubbish

- GM Kan has never had his photo taken with Leung Sheung nor has he attended any of his classes. Leung Sheung died in 1977. You must have been seeing a ghost.

- Hawkings Cheung invited Grandmaster Victor Kan to give a seminar in his school in Los Angeles in the early 1980?. Hawkings Cheung embarrassed himself by trying to attack Grandmaster Kan in Chi sao to impress his students but ended up crawling on the floor looking for his spectacles after being hit by Grandmaster Kan? palm strike. Living witness ?Kevin Gledhill. You can call this Grandmaster Kan? refresher course in the USA.

I must say that your understanding of English and knowledge of Ving Tsun are as bad as your research. In none of the pictures you told people to look at was Victor Kan present. What more can I say, Nutty Professor!
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 11/19/2002 10:18:36 PM IP: 213.40.131.65
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u bunch of ignorant inbred remedails follow ur plastic master who teaches plastic chinese kata moves to his sheep baa baa ,it so clear that vk didnt finish the system this would explain why his top student is naf af 31 yrs he gets his kicked by a nobody,ur masters lineage is pure its like spiders web who else did he learn
from ,im amazed people go to the school he teaches at knowing they wont learn jack the only place it will work is in a brothel for a small price u can even learn more thats why hes the pimp and ur the
sheep of his sorry school king of chee so yeh the king of shite,his
top students have left and joined others ps that his him on those photos dont lie vk uv been found out but the finish is near more will be revealled more people know about ur past than u think
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: a vkvt student Date: 11/20/2002 4:15:46 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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The Late GM Wong Shun Leung [our Si Bak] considered Sifu Kan to be one
of the best VT exponents in the WORLD.
He regularly came to our school just to hang out.
you can make your own mind up ,The late GM Wong Shun leungs opinion...
or the forum trolls....Hmmm now let me think...

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: snake Date: 11/22/2002 3:35:16 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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its quite clear that their are
trolls at your school ,your one of them(vkvt) but never mind all good things come to an end let us hope so does yours,i was wondering if your master borrowed the lineage thing or is it a franchise in this style.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 11/22/2002 11:25:28 PM IP: 195.112.34.208
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Did you meet Wong vkcvt student? Wong was superb. Apity he passed away. The new students wont be able to recieve his knowledge.

As I remember it was seminars.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 11/24/2002 1:43:19 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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a vkvt student 20/11/02 - the opinion of GM Wong Shun Leung or forum trolls...let me think ? Are you some type of comedian you twat?
Well you just opened up a can of worms.
There is a bigger con that Kan is running than his lineage with Yip man.A lot of people don't know about it,the seniors that do have left.
It's all to with his flat fook sau,it just does not work.There are a couple of twats with very fast palms and i kept getting hit,so i had a few privates with kan to correct it but i still kept getting hit.
So I left and and my new instructor showed me how to block properly within 2 lessons,however fast and powerful the palm .He said either kan did not know the correct fook sau or he was conning students as it is a great moneymaker,as the student blames himself,Kans says you're not quick enough,more money and time and dozens of lessons trying to block with faulty fook sau.It's a vicious circle.
My instructor said to check out this internet site http://www.wckf.nl/stor8.html
Don't believe me i am just a twat but these guys might ...
it's an interview with GM Wong Shun Leung and GM Tsui Sheung Tin,a questions and answers session.
Q Can you comment on some of the wing chun shapes?
A Master Tsui Sheung Tin said the shapes are not as important as the structure .This is more important than the sticking feeling with the fook sau exactly level. BOTH MASTERS FELT THAT THE FLAT FOOK SAU IS VERY BAD AND IS USED ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN'T DO THE OTHER FOOK SAU PROPERLY.
I was'nt going to write about this but you really pissed me off trying to drop names Wong shun Leung and trying to pull the wool over Kans students eyes even though they have more wool than students from other schools.
Another con is in the step in and palm.It took 2 lessons for that as well.




Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: eWarrior Date: 11/25/2002 7:37:43 AM IP: 80.189.4.88
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Dragonhead ?if you are serious about your assertion that VK is in those pictures, then it? obvious you have never seen Grandmaster Kan in your life. In the Hawkings Cheung photo, both protagonists are the same height and build. Cheung is 5ft 2in, 120 lb or so. Victor Kan is about 6ft, 190lb. QED I think.

The other picture, the group photo in Leung Sheung? kwoon, is less easy to deal with. However, none of the people in the photo is Sifu Kan. The person mentioned as being him (middle row, second from OUR right) is roughly similar in facial type but the cheek bones are far too high. I now expect silly arguments about the fact that this was taken when Kan was young and now he? old etc. but I?e taken the age difference into account.

It? obvious you jokers know that VK finished the system under Yip Man and that? why you?e all trying so hard to tell me what my Sifu looks like in an attempt to prove otherwise.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 11/26/2002 9:39:48 PM IP: 213.40.131.65
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its quite obvious u practice at vicar cons,i hear the vicar gives a
good prayer service to his flock of sheep baa,baa but they listen and dont progress i hope ur not in this league of lost souls as well as suspect lineage ref photos,please dont be silly they are the vicar con hes brain washed thinking their not their more facts and photos on their way ,is true that he teaches the fok soo incorrectly ,i supose when u reach the vicars level u can change what u like so does he lack the tech/abil or was that fok soo hes passing down taught to him by some one else all the best u sheep
dont forget ur lineage.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dragonhead Date: 11/26/2002 9:39:51 PM IP: 213.40.131.65
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its quite obvious u practice at vicar cons,i hear the vicar gives a
good prayer service to his flock of sheep baa,baa but they listen and dont progress i hope ur not in this league of lost souls as well as suspect lineage ref photos,please dont be silly they are the vicar con hes brain washed thinking their not their more facts and photos on their way ,is true that he teaches the fok soo incorrectly ,i supose when u reach the vicars level u can change what u like so does he lack the tech/abil or was that fok soo hes passing down taught to him by some one else all the best u sheep
dont forget ur lineage.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 11/26/2002 10:39:10 PM IP: 81.6.240.18
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WCinterpreter, that is interesting you mentioned the fook sau hand. Kan has is completely parallel and stresses that point. Believe me I remember being "corrected" by Kan over this subject. I think, the parallel hand works easier for taller people. Wong and Tsui weren't tall and parallel would leave their torso vunerable.



Good point.

Ps. vkcvt student: The fact that Wong gave seminars to Kans school has nothing to do with the problems at Kans school and his teaching.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: a vkvt student Date: 11/26/2002 11:55:15 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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One more time...
The late Grandmaster Wongs Opinion or the trolls
think about it ...the teacher of YOUR teacher came to our school to hang out eveytime he was in London . and it wasnt to give a seminar TWAT!

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Mark Thomas Date: 11/29/2002 12:04:49 AM IP: 62.190.57.65
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Old Timer,

What school in London are the VK students going to to gain extra Chi Sau practise? Wong Shun Leung's, WT's, Kamon's, Nick Smart's? These are the important questions, they would indicate which London school schools the best Chi Sau.

Mark
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: another vkvt student Date: 11/29/2002 10:36:10 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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By the way the flat fook sao in the article refers to a flat palm
of a fook sao being placed over the opposite bridge arm [practiced by an unnamed school ergo the article...]no guesses who,no politics.
by placing the palm down on the tan sao it can function as a paksao but you cant trap the opposite hand simultaneously because its commited to one arm...also making the fooksao less efficient in turning to.. paksao.. jum sao...a fist...gaun sao etc ,becasuse its not in a neutral postion as taught correctly I might add by one Sifu V. KAN and many others schools,its not that big a mystery!! QED. Try to understand the system before stirring?
my fook sao works is working and has worked for a long time .
nice try but youll have to find another person to blame your inadequacies on.You cant buy kung fu, it takes time and effort.
In your case lots more time,cause the money aint working.
the "2 lessons and its fixed" tells me a couple of things
one And two your a liar.
anyone who has practised chi sao will understand this.

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: snake Date: 11/29/2002 10:35:25 PM IP: 213.40.131.65
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to vkvt student you sound like a spears record that every one knows
wsl was the champions champions you trolls shouldnt even dream of comparing your master with WSL ,WSL proved him self in the streetshow good he was which more that can be said about your master
and those ballet leasons you lot attend ,WSL schools have expanded and your masters top students have left to join WSL SCHOOLS,
REF;i was watching a video of yip man doing SLT AND HIS FOK SAO IS NOT FLAT ,COULD any in your school answer the problem with flat fok sao since yip man didnt do flat fok sao.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: MI6 Date: 11/30/2002 1:01:58 AM IP: 193.113.48.11
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Actions speaks louder than words, after 25 years how many have finished the system under Victor, how many branches has he got with teachers who have completed at least up to Biu Gee level,and yes if he only goes to give lessions in other countries for a few days how can these so-called teaches teach his system.Hmm! all this talk, if a teacher has 20 students and 15 is good than the teacher is good, but if only 1 or 3 is good something must be wrong with his teaching methods, also is a man can say you are good today and rubbish tomorrow what will he do to you or say about you..Victor might know a little bit more than you regarding kung fu, but in businee he has no idea because he always fails in all his business, i wonder why? What you all should be asking yourself if he does not pass on his system before he passes away what will happen to his so-called system..no one lives forever so if you're so smart you better start taking lession everyday 7 days a week instead of writing rubbish or yo'll be left with nothing but memories and even memories fad away in time...see you all at the next lesson yes i'm one of you but can you guess who Ha, Ha.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: OLD GUARD Date: 11/30/2002 8:56:40 PM IP: 217.36.194.161
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That is indeed young Kanwahchit(V.Kan) in that photo in Leung Sheung Sifus class.But Prof.Zhong you are mistaken about him being taught by Leung Sheung Sifu. Kanwahchit was a bit of driftwood with too many knots and was thrown back in the river.
If you care to read the biography on Ken Chung you will come across the name of the person who taught Kanwahchit,Mr.Ah Cheung.
This is also the same person mentioned by Rene Ritchie as V.Kans Sifu many months ago , when questioned if Kanwahchit had finished the system with Yip Man Sifu.Rene Ritchie only found this out when he had closed door lessons with Ah Cheung.
Kanwahchit is being very disrespectful to Ah Cheung,as Kanwahchit earns his living thanks to Ah Cheung.In addition I have not heard so many complaints against a kung fu sifu as I have with V.Kan.
V.Kan is bringing Ving Tsun and all of kung fu into disrepute.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: snake Date: 12/5/2002 3:53:38 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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soit would appear that your one of the sheep of this naf school your master hides in a shack because he hasnt answered any of the previuos questions ie linage/those photos of studing under another master along with another vt legend so dont mess around and just admit he as not learnt from top man.listen dip stick when you watch a video of yip man doing chi soo is his tan soo or fok soo ever flat,then you nurd should ask your master why he can get away with that and icant after all your learning the same thing all the best
let your master con you all when you get beats look at super tan soo/fok soo .
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: eWarrior Date: 12/5/2002 7:19:48 AM IP: 80.189.6.195
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I agree with ?nother vkcvt student?that kung fu takes time. INTWERPRETER: you cannot learn these techniques in two lessons. As for this fook sau thing, you were getting hit because you had only just learnt it. I got hit constantly at first. But after some months constantly training the fook and wu sau, people now have a harder time hitting me with the palm attack. This is normal. I suspect the reason your new, ?uick fix? technique works is that the people you now train with do not have palm attacks that are fast and powerful enough. Come back to VKCVT and I assure you your new fook sau won? work either.

I have a question about this ?ther fook sau?you mention. I suspect that your fook, instead of the hand being in the same horizontal plane as the arm, i.e. the fiingers pointing to the side, has the fingers pointing downwards at about forty five degrees, with the wrist slack and relaxed. Am I right in this?

By the way snake, not all of Kan's top students (black shirts) have left. My info is that of those that did, only two or three have ended up training WSL lineage. Compare this to the six black shirts who still train at VKCVT and you get a different picture to the one you are trying to paint.

Dragonhead - we DO progress at Victor Kan's. You think we do not because you do not know what real progress in Kung Fu is. By the way, who's your shepherd? Have you been genetically modified? Are you Dolly the Sheep?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 12/6/2002 7:19:14 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Ok one more time twats !
Who do we believe, the guy who use to hang out with you- GM Wong Shong Leung ,his bro GM Tsui Sheng Ting and their Dad Yip Man or that fake troll Victor Kan(ref to Professor Zhongs pictures).They all say the flat fook sau is wrong and now you have the cheek to say Kan has the correct fook sau and three top men in Vingtsun are wrong. Answer me,what the hell are you saying, is Yip Man wrong?

Don't try to insult my intelligence and everyone on this forum with this type of rubbish,you may fool other people who are new to Vingtsun and fool and con the sheep at your school but don't try it on this forum.
So get off this forum with all your cons,otherwise I will reveal all the other cons and time wasting techniques in the Victor Kan system.You've been warned,I'll give you the whole lot,you twats won't have a leg to stand on and I will back it up with(INTWERPRATATIONS) solid proof from the real students of Yip Man like Wong Shong Leung,Tsui Sheng Ting etc.
He's brainwashed your tiny little brain really well into thinking that lame excuse is the correct answer for a flat fook sau.That twat Sheep was right, there are some thick twats in kung fu schools but ask yourself if the great Wong Shong Leung was wrong? How much has Kan modified his Vingtsun? Is he a bigger fake then Augustine Fong? Why is he standing in that Leung Sheung class photo?Is Kan lying to me?Is Kan conning me?How much of this has Kan made up himself? Is this part of the kung fu package in your kung fu fantasy? Ask questions like this.Take it day by day you twats.




Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: another vkvt student Date: 12/7/2002 2:44:16 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
Reply to this message
Sorry That was meant to be And a liar for intwerpeter? [sic]
sorry!
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: snake Date: 12/11/2002 10:35:24 PM IP: 213.40.131.65
Reply to this message
vkcvt/e-muppet you both agree because your probably learning the same old rubbish,your master does not know the difference between slt fok soo and the chee soo fok soo so you two clowns the planks that you are just carry on that rubbish your master teaches.you know what they say teach rubbish gung fu and you get vk rubbish out
please dont be rude to any sheep their level of ving chon is far superior than you bunch of turkeys at your ballet school of advanced acting,the shepherd is your guide at the moment hes lost in the fog and his turkeys are lost
e-muppet answer this if you dare who is the highest grade and how long hes been their,
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Advisor Date: 12/12/2002 6:44:22 AM IP: 80.189.14.104
Reply to this message
eWarrior ?you are an honest person. Let them put their fook sao or tan sao high to their head or low to their balls. If they think it's good, do not fall into their trap and give them free lessons. You have experienced the superiority of VKCVT and believe in it. Just ignore the rest, learn from the best and keep it to yourself. This is another proof that GM Kan is "The King".

Please visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt instructor Date: 12/14/2002 7:29:15 PM IP: 80.189.15.163
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Old Guard: You are completely mixed up with these chinese names and faces. Those who criticise are just jealous. You believe all the gossip and phoney stories except the truth due to bad research. Sifu Kan Wah Chit was already a millionaire which he inherited from his rich family before he started teaching VT. Check it out from Hong Kong. He has so much pride in Ving Tsun. He knows you guys heard about VT. He doesn't have to bow to anyone to make a living like the other masters. That's why he teaches the best Ving Tsun regardless of what others think and say. He treats his students as students and not as customers. Do you want to learn genuine, 99% pure Ving Tsun? Then go to him - no second thoughts.

CONFUSED BY THE REST, COME LEARN THE BEST.

Intwerpreter: Why should anyone bother to insult you. You have no intelligence to insult anyway. You are nothing but a common D.I.Y. Wing Chun boy who pretends to be a WC expert. Dick head.

STAY WITH THE REST, REJECT FROM THE BEST.

Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKstudent Date: 12/15/2002 7:35:52 PM IP: 213.208.104.187
Reply to this message
Kan seems like the kind of chi sao loving, none applied (except for myths) pure wing chun kind of guy. I love learning from him.

TA


----------------------------------------------------------

Please let us put things into perspective....first of all, the article in question is NOT a new one, but was written quite some years ago, and secondly....what is all the fuss about anyway? Jesse is NOT saying anything that is not at all accurate in terms of the majority of WC practitioners, not just those whom he has met.

"I know Jesse very well, was invited by him to give seminars in the WSL Method in Seattle, and have trained with he and his students. Jesse Glover is a formidable fighter whose techniques are both powerful and precise. Sure, his training methods are very different from what many of you might have experienced, and perhaps you may not agree with them, or with some of the techniques/concepts he employs, but the bottom line is that they work, and he produces students with excellent skills.

"What Jesse is saying about WC is entirely accurate when taken in the context of which it was written. On top of this, his quote from my late Sifu is absolutley accurate as I have heard Sifu make this remark on several occasions. WC is like the finest car, or the most delicate scientific instrument.

"It is perfect science in every respect, but how many of you would put a young inexperienced driver in that car or place the scientific instrument in the hands of a child and expect good results from your actions? There is much in the WC system that most of us will NEVER fully understand, and even more (in terms of techniques and/or concepts) that we will NEVER have either a need or an opportunity to apply.

"Most of us will NEVER live a life that requires us to put our skills on the line on a regular, even semi-regular basis....in fact, how many of you can honestly say that you have faced a life-and-death situation and survived it purely based on your WC skills? Lets get real about the whole WC experience. In reality, most of those pursuing the art have NOT been in such a situation, and most of those involved have NOT really experienced what I would refer to as "reality-type" training, whereby on a regular basis, you pit yourself and your students against full-on, aggressive and UNREHEARSED attacks from practitioners of other systems, with the intention to hurt them if they get it wrong.

"Instead, from what I have observed (and Jesse is speaking of the same reality), what is normally practised in the majority of WC schools are pre-arranged drills with WC techniques being pitted against WC techniques, usually without the "venom" and the psychological pressure (to elicit the necessary "adrenaline dump" that real combat creates), thus giving the students a very false sense of security as to how effective their "skills" will be in the actual "Pavement Arena."

"The safety net that the four walls of the training area offer is the main culprit for the escalation of ineffective WC that is being taught around the world today. People are trapped in their theories and concepts, bound up by this sequence and that, and have failed to look beyond the "fixed ideas" to discover how WC is meant to offer a guide to self-discovery whereby one "...becomes the MASTER of Wing Chun, and NOT its SLAVE"....look at how Wong Shun Leung reached his level of expertise and understanding, a level that virtually all on this forum have expressed a respect and admiration for.

"He tested himself UNDER PRESSURE in the real world, not once or twice but DOZENS of times. He didn't spend endless hours in Chi Sau practise, developing endless responses to artificially created and over-analyzed sequences, ...he took the concepts, tested them, refined them down to the most simple alternatives and USED his WC as an effective TOOL to get a job done.

"When Jesse says that Chi Sau doesn't work in a fight, he's RIGHT, because the way in which most WC practitioners apply it means that it can't be effective. You don't fight your opponent with Chi Sau, ...you USE the skills, reflexes and flexibilty that Chi Sau is meant to develop in order to HIT the other guy, not to "stick" with him or "chase" his hands. Chi Sau, like all the drills, techniques, concepts and forms in WC are a means to an end, NOT the end itself.

"If Jesse's article makes you depressed, then get off your butt and start training for reality. If you are sitting there complacently, expecting that no matter what happens, "It's okay, my Wing Chun will save the day", then get a grip on reality. Don't take me out of context either, ...I'm not advocating that we throw the baby out with the bath water....you won't find a more loyal devotee of WC than me.

"The WC system IS a great system of personal combat, but there are lots of other great systems of personal combat out there and chances are that you'll end up fighting them, not one of your own. Don't get blinded by the theory and the forms, UNDERSTAND the message that they are giving you and learn to be flexible and adaptable in applying this knowledge.

"The reality is that much of what is in the system IS NOT APPLIED EXACTLY AS IT IS TRAINED, any more so than reading a book about swimming can teach you how to swim....you have to jump in the pol and get wet, APPLY the theories to the reality, not just expect them to work like it says in the book.

"This was the message of my Sifu, this is what Jesse is trying to say....stop attacking the messenger and read the message. If I've offended anyone, no offence was intended and I apologise, but if you have understood what I'm trying to convey, then all the power to you and just watch your WC improve in all the best possible ways. Best Wishes to All.
DMP

------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: article source Date: 12/16/2002 10:14:15 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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1] the article in question is by ray van ramsdonk with
wsl & tui shun tin .great guy rvr,always a good source
of info
2] it can be found on clive potters web site "the wsl files"
3] jesse ? why is jesse being mentioned ?
4] happy hols

TA

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKstudent Date: 12/16/2002 10:33:34 PM IP: 213.208.105.11
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vkcvt instructor, which instructor are you? whats your name?

whats with ALL THESE SLOGANS.
PROOF THEM.

Tacky marketing from KAN WHO TREATS HIS STUDENTS LIKE CUSTOMERS FOR THE MONEY AND LIKE CRAP FOR THE EGO BOOST.

>Genuine Pure 99% wing chun.

Proof that statement.

>STAY WITH THE REST, REJECT FROM THE BEST

What are you on about?

Everyone so far from Kan's clan sound like idiots with stupid marketing schemes of genuine, were the best.

Kan's a millionaire inherited from his parents. Great huh. I think thats another statement showing how greedy Kan is towards his students.

QUANTITY your statements.

TA
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Cool It Date: 12/17/2002 5:57:21 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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All I wish to say is that I am not interested in any of the politics on this forum.
But what I would like to point out is that this forum has far too many young juvinile morons who are trying to make out they are hard.

The most useful remark on this forum was made by Professor Zhong on 8/11/02, point number 2 ,about Ving Tsun being utilised for health instead of fighting.

Now the great David Peterson(DMP)makes a valid point(15/12/02)about how a vast number of Ving Tsun people are over estimating their skill in the art,they hardly ever train in realistic situations,and never face the onslaught of a vicious MF(opponent).
So please take note you juvinile morons(young and old) who think they are hard.You would have no chance in the street.

Your Ving Tsun skills(seniors and juniors) would be no use.I think your Ving Tsun would get you into more trouble than in would get you out of.
I think nearly all the morons(Seniors and Juniors) on here would be be done over by a 14 year old school boy with a blade and a little bit of attitude.I don't care how many years you've done it for,the longer you've done it,the more foolish you will be to the reality of the real world.

Don't expect anyone to square up to you in real life,expect to stabbed in the back ,and probably by two or more assailents.Also watch out for those Lucozade bottles,some people are'nt carrying them just for the energy.

Any sifu who makes out that the kung fu they are teaching will get you out of trouble are mis-leading you.It will only get you killed.

I applaud you David Peterson(DMP) for higlighting this point and for being so honest.GM WSL has taught you well - no nonsense,just facts.

So wake up all you morons out there who think this Ving Tsun will help you in a fight,but I can guarantee it is good for your health.





Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Eurasian Guilo Date: 12/19/2002 2:04:23 PM IP: 212.72.2.150
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You are all arguing about things that really shouldn't be argued about. I know coz a mate of mine learn't from Victor Kan. He basically said that though his teaching is good, he is expensive and teaches very slowly. If you have to pay for each form to be shown to you etc then I think it's quiet bad really.

If you are fed up with him, then leave and learn somewhere else. the only person I would recommend is Samuel Kwok and his organisation. I know his Wing Chun is excellent and I know it works on the street. He is not expensive and will show you anything you want if he thinks you are really into Wing Chun and if you're of good character.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: forum admin Date: 12/23/2002 9:56:52 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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this thread is J raman s&%# stirring .
he tries to be other people to avoid censorship by the forum.
he was thrown out of the school and this is his form of
revenge.
please be advised most of this thread is the work of a script wtriter.
forum admin

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Keep It Real Date: 12/23/2002 9:56:56 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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I have seen postings about the Victor Kan photos on some other Wing Chun forums.All I got to ask is how this fake has got a away with this for so long.
For every time Victor Kan says he is a Yip Man student 1 in 10 potential Wing Chun students might believe it.Before you know it you will have a whole school of mislead students.
Does'nt Combat magazine check if the qualifications of the people advertising are genuine? It's very misleading and costly for potential students.
Sort it out!
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e Date: 12/24/2002 6:28:11 PM IP: 81.6.242.252
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Whoever J Raman is, sounds like hes just one in a long list of unhappy people at the Kan school. Proof that even people training with him are publicly annoyed with his treatment of people. Lots of his seniors have left him.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Jiu Jitsu Date: 12/24/2002 11:14:01 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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CoolIt you may be right about Ving Tsun being no good against a knife attack.The Centre Punch would be no good against a knife.
But when it comes to Jiu Jitsu ,it's another story.Jiu Jitsu was made for fighting an opponent with a knife.I could show you a hundered different techniques to disarm an attacker with a knife.Their wrist,elbow and shoulder would be broken before they hit the floor.
So mate,don't catergorise and compare usefullness of Ving Tsun with other martial arts and Jiu Jitsu for fighting in the real world.
Ving Tsun may be good for fighting other Ving Tsun opponents but against other styles Ving Tsun is useless.
Whereas Jiu Jitsu is useable in every situation.
Cool It an apology will be required by all Jiu Jitsu artists for this incompetent remark you made about this knife wealding 14 year old.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 12/27/2002 1:14:53 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Observation Report to December 24th 2002.

Sifu Kan has tried to conduct the lessons in an orderly fashion in this period.He has failed to control himself a couple of times.
So there is still more room for improvement in his attitude towards his loyal students.But well done for trying.Keep it up.

It appears in this period the question of Sifu Kans lineage to Yip Man has been investigated fully.People are not very happy with Sifu Kan and have given him both barrels.I hope the Student Union has taken note of the exchanges and the photos that have come to light.I hope this answers that particular question which you have all been asking.
I will still keep my ears open for any developments.

In addition if any students have any grievences or suggestions could you please air them on this forum so they can be answered by Sifu Kan.Do not come and moan and groan and bitch to me in the class or the changing rooms about the things you are not happy with at the school.(Write in under :- VK Student Union).I thought I made this clear last time.You know who you are,get on with it.I know it's troublesome to write in but it is in the best interests of the school and welfare of all the students.Thanks.

After requests from the Student Union and potential students on this forum I have noted his teaching methods.
It appears Sifu Kan will show a move,but not really give an indepth explanation verbally of the move.I think Sifu Kan expects the student to work it out for himself.This is not what is expected when students are paying 13 pound per lesson(15 pounds per lesson for seniors).It wastes a lot of the students time.
Hope this helps.
Hope everyone had a Happy Christmas.I wish you all a Happy New Year.
Next Observation report at the end of January 2003.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 12/28/2002 8:00:39 PM IP: 213.208.105.120
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Jujitsu, you sound like a mug. Jujitsu is no better then wing chun, or whatever else. Its the person not the art. If only a knife attack was so easily defending with chin na, ju jitsu.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Lomax Date: 12/28/2002 8:09:31 PM IP: 213.208.105.120
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Vk Observer, does Kan know who you are? Cause your disloyality to your school sucks.

Hiding behind the forum yet attending his school. You think you can improve him? He's teaching you. He's not meant to be nice, he's there to teach you wing chun. So pay for that and shut up OR LEAVE.

I respect the guys who left cause they couldn't get along with him, pasco, garfield, etc.

I respect the guys who stay with him - put up with his teaching method, and learn good wing chun.

But you?? Whats your name? Kan has the right to know who is mouthing off behind his back whilst learning his stuff.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: eWarriror Date: 12/31/2002 7:21:43 AM IP: 80.189.13.86
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To those attacking VK's lineage:
It's the easiest thing in the world to chuck mud at someone's reputation, especially when you're not expected to back it up with facts. Let's try a little experiment. I could say that Wong Sheung Leung never learnt under Yip either. And what about all those challenge fights? Does the man expect us to believe he never lost a single one? Humbug!

Now I don't believe such nonsense about Wong, but just think about how you would actually prove me wrong. You can't. Not one hundred per cent, anyway. There is hardly any documentation for these things. The best you could hope for is a bit of circumstantial evidence.

So I did a little research on Victor Kan on the web as follows:

I used the Google search engine 'cos it's easy and it's fast. I typed in "victor kan" (you need the quotes to limit the search to the exact phrase). I received about 400 hits. Amongst the table tennis players, electronics wizards and software junkies, you will encounter a martial artist called Victor Kan a.k.a. Kan Wah Chit.

Being the nice guy I am, I have listed the most relevant ones I looked at. If you have difficulty finding the relevant section in a long piece of text, try using the text search in your browser to look for victor kan as I did.

Wingchunkuen:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/masters/masters_kanwahchit.shtml

wingchun.com:
http://www.wingchun.com/yipline.html about 2/3rds of the way down
http://www.wingchun.com/yipchron.shtml (1954-55) about half way down

sifu Duncan Leung:
Although no mention of his lineage, says that VK brought Ving Tsun to the UK
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/

think this might be a Netherlands site:
http://www.vechtsport.nu/sporten/wingchun/Yipman_timeline.doc (same as second wingchun.com link?)

William Cheung:
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Photo%20Galleries/PhotoGalleryA.asia.html pic of William Cheung and VK

unknown
In a foreign language so I don't know what it's about but it lists VK with other Yip Man students
http://www.wingchun.ro/maestrii/elevidirecti.htm

A New York Leung Ting site
mentions VK as one of Yips early disciples (in HK?) 8th paragraph near picture of Yip Man
http://www.wingtsun-nyct.com/history.html

other
http://www.progress-notes.com/wcyipman.html 4th paragraph of "THE FIRST PUBLIC WING CHUN SCHOOL"

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/Sifus/Victor%20Kan.htm

The William Cheung photo is interesting. Behind the two sifus is a picture of Yip Man. Seems to suggest they both learnt under the great man.

So riddle me this. Why are all these organisations and individuals saying the same things? Oh yeah, I forgot. They've all been taken in just like Kan? students (sorry, "sheep"). By the way, where's the "evidence" you guys keep banging on about? Haven? seen any yet apart from a statement attributed to Rene Ritchie (probably a fake Rene) and a couple of photos that are obviously someone else. LOL?
Advantage eWarrior, I think.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: wc bruiser Date: 12/31/2002 8:08:56 AM IP: 80.189.3.125
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Cool It ?what are you on about? does you know anything about live confrontation? I don't bleeding thinks so mate
not all fights involve one against ten with knives or surprise attacks from the rear
most fights i've been in/seen have been one on one with bare fists and they started with the protagonists facing one antoher
your attitude is that kung fu is totally useless in fighting ?that's utter crap systems like wing chun have been proven in street fights in hong kong and but it won? turn you into a superman all it gives yoo is a better fighting chance
why am I having to state the obvious to you losers?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: desmond tutu Date: 12/31/2002 7:12:09 PM IP: 80.189.6.18
Reply to this message
oi snake, you troll
don't slag off ballet
it might look girly but it's a physically demanding art that would have an armchair warrior like you sweating buckets in a trice ?when was the last time you ponced around on your toes for half an hour?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt adminstration Date: 12/31/2002 7:18:36 PM IP: 80.189.13.114
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GM Victor Kan teaches and trains all his students in the traditional way to the highest VT standard.

You lot, the dropped out, kicked out lot and the spies, whatever you like to call yourselves, what is the point of keep lying and criticising CVT which you don't know much about. Why don't you just go to the other modified or imitation WC schools. This will be the best solution.

Sifu Kan will be very happy not teaching you lot. You lot will be happy not facing him every week and can instruct your instructor what you want to do. The other WC instructor will be even happier making more money thanks to Sifu Kan? generosity. Surely they will give him even more respect. All parties will be content. A happy ending.

Forget the rest, come learn the best

Merry Xmas and a happy new year.

Visit www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: WC Taoist Date: 12/31/2002 9:03:28 PM IP: 80.189.7.203
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i train a wsl lineage style of ving tsun
a few of the things that have been said about Kan are true
he's arrogant, has an abrasive attitude and his teaching methods can be odd
the rest is abusive crap - his kung fu is top quality ive been to a few of his seminars etc. and was impressed
those who are slagging him off should be ashamed of themselves since it is obvious that he learnt from the same teacher as Sifu Wong - WSL and VKCVT are very, very similar also my current sifu says that Wong had a lot of respect for Victor Kan, considered him to be one of the very best of Yip's students

and all this about flat fook saos
i don't remember kan doing any of that ?a flat fook is with the palm lying flat on the opponent? arm ?at Kan? they do a LEVEL fook sao, same at my school otherwise you get hit
yip did NOT used to lift his tan or fook in chi sao there's a well known pic of him doing sticky hands with bruce lee
yip's tan is almost level but is raised slightly but that's cos heis shorter than bruce - he can't 'elp but do that

if any of these forum jokers consider themselves part of the wong sheung leung family, well they're not

they're also enemies of authentic Wing Chun in general
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 1/2/2003 6:15:22 PM IP: 213.1.191.213
Reply to this message
Would just like to let you all know the last post under 'Lomax' was not me,I always put my e-mail address and full name.Quite flattering really........
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: General Info Date: 1/3/2003 7:10:24 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Yo wc bruiser 31/12/02 you sound like a real expert in wing chun.
Can you please tell me how long you been doing the style?
Sorry to think you are wasting your time with us.
This subject of Can Wing chun be used in a fight has already been discussed.You must have missed it.
Go and check this site out have a read.It's someguy called sifu wong kew kit.He's done kung fu for 20 years or so and has trained is some school called shaolin something.
wc bruiser,I suppose you been training for well over 20 years?Am I on the money?
You might find it a good read,if you are interested in fighting,even though he spoils it by talking about lion dacing,zen meditation and tai chi.

He discusses if kung fu can be used in fighting.
try it sorry if it wastes your time.

HTTP://WWW.SHAOLIN-WAHNAM.ORG
Navigate to the bottom of the page,
Options - General,KUNG FU,chi kung,zen,tai chi.

Go for the KUNG FU option - double clik.
Navigate to the bottom of the page and double click on the highlighted item
"CAN KUNG FU BE USED FOR FIGHTING?. Read both Part 1 and Part 2.
See what you think.I would not take it as gospel as he is only a sifu and not even a grandmaster plus he's only trained for 20 years or so.
anyone got any questions for this guy Sifu wong can ask him on his site.If you got loads of time he has got three years of questions and answers about kung fu and fighting etc.
Just navigate past the option for kung fu and double click on
ANSWERS.
He's answered loads of questions which have been brought up in this forum plus as a bonus he has done Wing Choon as well.

WC Bruiser you say wing chun has been proven in the streets of hong kong,I know they had knives those days in hong kong,but did they have guns? Or was it a death penalty offence to have a gun in hong kong those days in the 1950-60's?
Just today on the news I saw two girls had been shot at a party in Birmingham.They said on the news that some people are carrying guns for fashion accessories in all the big cities.I guess WC bruiser you can show people your kung fu sash as a fashion accessorie.They might be impressed.If not they might just shoot you.
A thousand hours of training,dismissed by the pull of a trigger.
Why do they carry gun and knives? Is it because they are hard? No I think it's because they are scared of guys like you wc bruiser and these people who weight train etc.They got no chance with an expert like you as they do no training and they know it.
Another new elememnt has entered the equation in most of the big cityies,I am wondering if you noticed it ?I experienced it first hand was lucky to get away. The Asylum seekers.
To be fair to them ,some of them are no pushover,especially the ones from the eastern block countries.
They got a different mind set,they've seen their families and friends killed and tortured and cooked at tyre mark 5.
When they get into a fight they are going for the kill,are you ready to do that and the time which goes with that type of action?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 1/4/2003 4:52:31 AM IP: 213.122.74.98
Reply to this message
I would like you all to know that the last statement posted under 'Lomax' was not me,the real David Lomax always puts his full name and his E-mail contact address.Plus I would never refer to the GrandMaster as 'Kan' as some of the clowns do on this board.
David Lomax 6th grade student of Classical Ving Tsun.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 1/5/2003 12:15:31 AM IP: 195.112.34.246
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I agree with e-warrior, I think the debate about whether Kan, Wong, whatever learnt under Yip man is merely talk. Kan uses it as a marketing point "genuine". Wong did not.

The issue is his attitude and his fighting ability. Wing chun isn't boxing, ju jitsu. It really is untested for most people. People respect wong for saying "I tested what I learnt." Whether his record was unbeaten or not. In boxing, u go in the ring, ju jitsu and alot of other martial arts go to MMA tournaments, Pride and the such. Warriors go in the ring to be tested equally (under fair rules, not street whatever comes. And thats what true warriors did, they arranged a time and place to test each others abilities). And wing chun guys moan how they couldn't fight in real life. Thats rubbish. The ring is real, they get hit. In a "street" fight conditions are simple not fair. Wing chun has the image of being a street art. They have "better odds".

When I was at Kan's, I didn't like his teaching, wasn't practical enough for me, I didn't like the way he was really out for your money in a big way, like money was the deciding factor in your wing chun education. And that issue has caused him and many of his top students to part ways. And after hearing the message that hes inhereted millions from his parents makes me think worse of him.

Lineage is so overrated. Its probably simple to think Yip man was good, so his students will be. Any one who took a lesson with Yip man is the 50's has the right to say, they were taught by Yip, but it doesn't mean a thing. There is nothing special about being taught by Yip Man.

vkcvt administration shows its arrogance. Modified, imitation, genuine. Why so much emphasis on these issues? When your the best, you dont have to blow your own trumpet.

William cheung? does he have the genuine style? Wong? Kan? Tsui, Lok Yiu, Yips sons? They all have differences. What about Yuen Kay san? That not genuine?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt Date: 1/7/2003 12:50:18 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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bollocks.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt Date: 1/10/2003 7:13:35 PM IP: 213.208.105.12
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When vkcvt (aka Kan students or himself) cant sustain a proper arguement there answers turn to one word rubbish answers.

Boo hoo
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 1/10/2003 7:16:54 PM IP: 213.208.105.12
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Kan still sucks.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: J. Man Date: 1/11/2003 2:23:21 AM IP: 150.214.41.59
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I would like to give my opinion in relation to this Victor Kan thread, and specifically in relation to the picture in which Hawkins Cheung, supposedly, punches at Victor Kan; and also my view relative to the Leung Sheung Class picture where Victor Kan, supposedly, appears as a student.


A) The Hawkins Cheung picture:

I doubt this picture deserves much comment but I will give mine nevertheless:

1. First of all, a picture where the face can not be seen is, obviously, ridiculous for this type of discussion as, in principle, it can be anybody, including Santa Claus.

2. Considering the relative size of each individual, the person in question can not be Victor Kan because in the picture he does not seem to be much bigger than Hawkins and, in reality, however, Victor Kan is quite a big man while Hawkins is quite a small man.

3. Taking into consideration seniority and traditional respect to it, that man must certainly not be Victor Kan, not only because Victor Kan would not have allowed that sort of picture to be taken but, frankly speaking, because I doubt Hawkins Cheung would ever dare ask and, let alone, take a picture like that. It is important to emphasize Hawkins is a junior in Wing Chun with respect to Victor Kan (?he path to Wing Chun? page 92; ?randmaster Yip Man Centenary Birth? page 115).

4. The possibility that Hawkins could actually ?urprise?Victor Kan in action is debatable. In my personal opinion, however, it is not very likely for various reasons I do not find necessary to detail. From my perspective, it can not be what can not be, with all due respect for Hawkins Cheung. In the same manner, I am of the belief none of the two would have ?urprised?Leung Sheung.


B) The Leung Sheung Class picture and Victor Kan

This picture, unlike the former one, is more interesting to talk about and, to me, is more open to debate. Personally, I have never seen Victor Kan when he was in his teens, therefore it is difficult for me to verify if the person in the picture is him or not. Besides, as a westerner I am probably less used to distinguishing oriental faces than I would with western faces. Therefore, if I tried to verify whether or not that young guy is Victor Kan, my degree of speculation based on the face alone would be very high and I do not think I could ever conclude anything in this respect. Because of this, I would choose a different argumentation to deduct that this picture is not what someone says it is and to conclude it does not imply what someone tries to imply. In addition, since the person who mentioned this picture in this forum thread also mantains Leung Ting is in the same picture where Victor Kan supposedly appears, I will use Leung Ting as a control group with which to compare all my reasoning relative to Victor Kan. Therefore, I will not refute the picture directly, instead I will provide, what I deem, enough solid evidence that Victor Kan was undoubtedly a senior student of Yip Man, so that the picture in itself will be meaningless by definition. My thinking about Victor Kan is based on the following information:

1) There is an interesting article Wong Shun Leung wrote about Victor Kan, in 1978, in the magazine ?ecrets of Kung Fu? It reads as follows. ?n London, England, is a Yung-ch?n instructor of real worth?.... ?is history with the Yung-ch?n Style is a very long one. In fact he was the man who, in the capacity of a substitute of Grandmaster Yeh Wen, taught Bruce Lee the first section of the Little Idea Form on the very day Bruce Lee knelt to Grandmaster Yeh Wen to become a Yung-ch?n disciple?.... ?e was therefore favoured by Grandmaster Yeh Wen?... ?ore than twenty years ago, Chan Cho Ch?ng...... brought him to a district restaurant workers?union, where he knelt to Grandmaster Yeh Wen to learn kung fu. He was only 14 years old then but he was tall and strong by nature, and was indefatigable after training assiduosly all day long. He never tried to learn too much in a haste, rather, he trained in an orderly way and in a down-to-earth manner. Grandmaster Yeh Wen liked him very much and gave him much personal guidance in after-class times?... I wonder if much more can be said... Surprisingly, the article contains many more comments of the same nature, however they do not refer specifically to the points I am trying to prove and, therefore, I have not added them.

2) The Hong Kong Ving Tsun Athletic Association published in the mid 90s an interesting book entitled ?randmaster Yip Man Centenary Birth? From page 111 to 118 there is an article written by Yip Chun (? chronicle of the life of Grandmaster Yip Man?. At the end of the article and the book there? a picture with Tsui Sheung Ting, Siu Yuk Man, Wong Shun Leung, Yip Chun and Yip Ching which seem all to have been in charge of the book. This article by Yip Chun lists all of the famous students Yip Man had in his entire life, stating the location where they joined for training and the year in which it took place. This article is quite extensive and began mentioning Fatshan and the people who trained there including Chow Kwong Yiu, Kwok Fu, Ng Ying, Lun Kai, Chow Sai, etc. On page 115, in the third paragraph, it reads: ?his is the later stage of the Restaurant Workers Association. At this time he was joined by Lee Kam Sing, Kan Wa Jeet (Victor Kan)...? The name of Victor Kan in bracketts appears as such as do the names of Cheung Cheuk Heng (William Cheung) on the same paragraph and Lee Siu Lung (Bruce Lee) in the next one. On page 116, in the third and fourth paragraphs, corresponding to the periods 1963-1965 and 1965-1972, respectively, a list of the private students of that time is given. Coincidentally, the name of Leung Ting is not listed anywhere in the chapter.

3. In ?he path to Wing Chun?by Samuel Kwok, on page 92, a Wing Chun family tree is presented and lists Victor Kan as a senior student of Yip Man while, interestingly, listing Leung Ting as a student of Leung Sheung.

4. In the book ?y life with Wing Chun?written by William Cheung, on page 34, gives a description of one of his fights with a Choy Lee Fut exponent named Leung and explains how after the fight Leung became friends with him (William) and also with Bruce Lee and Victor Kan. Also, at the end of the book there is quite a large lineage chart and Victor Kan is again listed as a senior student of Yip Man while Leung Ting is listed as a student of a student of Leung Sheung.

5. Finally, the pictures in Victor Kan website speak for themselves not only about Victor Kan being a student of Yip Man but also, undeniably, about high seniority as well. In fact, these pictures and what they reflect are coherent with the evidence I have commented in points 1, 2, 3 and 4 in relation to Victor Kan; and are also consistent with points 2,3 and 4 in relation to Leung Ting.

All this evidence is, from my point of view, serious enough, to emphatically rule out the absurd pretension that Victor Kan were a student of Leung Sheung. The proofs I have detailed demonstrate not only that Victor Kan was a student of Yip Man but, as a matter of fact, a very senior student. Of course, we still have the picture issue left, is Victor Kan the young guy in the Leung Sheung Class? I do not know, it might be him. If so, in my opinion, owing to the overwhelming and always consistent evidence on behalf of Victor Kan being one of the most senior students of Yip Man, it would be wiser and more sensible to asume that his face in this picture may have been, timely, transported there by someone. After all, if it has been feasible to change heads in the past, how easy would it be nowadays?

REFERENCES
-Cheung William. (1997): ?y life with Wing Chun? -Kwok Samuel (1989): ?he Path to Wing Chun? -Ving Tsun Athletic Association: ?randmaster Yip Man Centenary Birth? -Wong Shun Leung (1978): An instructor of the Yung ch?n style in Britain. Secrets of Kung Fu Vol. 3, n?.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt Date: 1/12/2003 2:21:37 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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my sifu better than yours nya
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: hardcase Date: 1/15/2003 3:00:27 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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every one kkows kans kung fu school is crap they just go their for the name sake ,all you have to do is look at his top students if he has any and the number of schools he or his students have.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvt Date: 1/17/2003 10:09:25 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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dear mr hardcase,
quality is not measured by quantity .

G.M.Kan is the man!!


Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ju Jitsu Date: 1/22/2003 5:41:04 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Chung you Wing Chun guys are the mugs.You are not sheep but more like osterichs.You lot like to stick your heads in the sand and end up getting it up.
There may be no fight tournaments for wing chun in the UK.But in the far east there are wing chun tournaments and open ALL style tournaments going on all the time.Some are anything goes.
You wing chun guys keep losing over and over again to other styles.
These are yellow devils taught by other yellow devils.These are real masters who are doing the teaching,not the cowboys who are teaching in the UK.They are not holding anything back like the lot in the UK and there are usually some big money gambled on the outcomes.
You dickheads spend far too much time reading than training.Look at some of the postings in the last few weeks.Some of you guys could have finished the system by the time you finished reading and writing that thing about Victor Kan.
At least that thing on "Can Kung Fu be used In Fighting " was interesting and sounds about right,90 per cent of Martial artists can't fight, the 10 per cent that can are Ju Jitsu men.Written by some one with 50 years in martial arts of shaolin.You got to take your head out of the sand and sit up,when you read something like that.
Do you think that out of all martial artists in the world , Ju Jitsu guys make up 10 per cent of them ?
As you dickheads like reading so much,go and read this book which gives an account of wing chun guys performances in the ring over several years.Losing year after year because of a vital flaw in the system.(I can tell you what it is!)Book is " the Power Of internal Martial Arts" By BK FRANTZIS.
PAGES 104-106.It's in most bookshops,no point buying it as its to pricey.The author is a dickhead traveling around china looking for a good martial art, when all he had to do was go to his nearest ju Jitsu school in his neighbourhood.He's got no gripe with wing chun,he's just studying all the styles out there.So he's a good reference.
Don't go on about not being able to use Bil Tzee as these were anything goes tournaments,with yellow devils teaching other yellow devils and reputations at stake.
Plus what would happen if people from other styles started doing the finger jabs to the eyes and throat chops to the neck to you wing chun guys,you lot would be massacered.
You guys are useless ,keep dreaming.Keep reading and squabbling amongst yourselves.And if you got time try to do some training.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ju Jitsu Date: 1/22/2003 5:55:59 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Chung you are slightly right about "it's the person not the art".
If you have'nt got that " ROY KEANE MEAN GENE" then you will be no good at Martial arts.Whatever belt or grade or dan you get,it will be useless.
Chung I will give you a point for that good call.Well done you are not such a dickhead afterall.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: hardcase Date: 1/23/2003 1:22:32 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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a good sign for a school is its expansion if it does not it will stagnate and that style will be defunk it must thats wy no takes ving chung seroiusly in most opinions it is play pass time for comics best thing is to enter a few k-1 compation and show your deadlyness will even stand still for you to try your stuff
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dead horse Date: 1/23/2003 12:43:05 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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your flogging a dead horse guys, this is now random.
give it up!
If Victor wasnt something this thread would have died
a long time ago.
thanks for perpetuating the thread
!
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 1/23/2003 4:49:54 PM IP: 217.33.195.161
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I think that 'Ju Jitsu' must own a book shop.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Chung Date: 1/23/2003 10:27:55 PM IP: 81.6.248.138
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Ju jitsu,

I'm studying bjj, mixed martial arts. Kinda stuff u see on pride, etc.

I stopped Kan wing chun cause it is academic wing chun. Thats the best way to describe it.

If you mean Kung fu tournaments, they dont have ground fighting. If you mean illegal matches anything goes, I wouldn't know. You hear stories about tournaments going down like that (aka kickboxer van damme stuff haha) but I dont care.

Jujitsu isn't the end all of martial arts. I suggest you go have a spar with some thai kickboxers. Anyone who trains with high intensity sparring quickly learns what works and doesn't, but theres still variety, suggesting theres more then one way to skin a cat.

Well Jujitsu if are from the UK, give me your e-mail address, we'll meet up, I'll take you down to my club and we can practise on the matt. Do more walking and less writing as you said. We're friendly but train hard. Expect some bruising.

I dont know what you mean by yellow devil? But if your referring to asian people, I'm asian and so are the inventors of jujitsu and most martial arts so stop being a racist.

Wing chun isn't useless, but people like Kan can't enlighten the way to a wing chun with fighting ability. I have adapted wing chun concepts into my training. I have much to learn though, in wing chun and jujitsu.


Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: dead horse Date: 1/24/2003 6:37:08 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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dear mr hardcase ,
you sound like you have been in one too many K1's.
You probably look like a K1 fighter as well.

Some people learn martial arts to avoid achieving both of the above.
good luck with your shpelling.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkcvtwhocares. Date: 1/28/2003 8:32:45 PM IP: 81.6.248.138
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>your flogging a dead horse guys, this is now random.
>give it up!
>If Victor wasnt something this thread would have died
>a long time ago.
>thanks for perpetuating the thread
>!

No deadhorse, still thread going. Kan is something else yeah ripping off and abusing people, his wing chun sucks, he's got his own people bagging on him. It's a funny joke of a school.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: A Student Date: 2/1/2003 3:16:01 AM IP: 156.61.25.56
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I've been doing wing chun for over 17 years and over the years i've tested it in various situations against other wing chun stylists and other styles. For years i've heard Victor kan and his students talk about their level of sticky hand s amd they are the best and every other wing chun is chop suey wing chun. Well I know for a fact that when Wong Shun Leung was in England one year, his student Anthony Kan defeated him in a sticky hands challenge. This has also been verified by former Kan students as well as wong Shun Leungs students.
Also i Know Victor has said things about William Cheung in magazines, but in a Fighters magazine issue he claimed that Cheung was the super streetfighter. So why the hypocrisy
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: High Tan Sau Date: 2/2/2003 2:30:28 AM IP: 194.117.133.118
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Alright lads I think dead horse is correct,this thread is finished.
It has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that GM Kan is fake,he has fooled the British public for over 25 years,abused them,overcharged them and on top of all that not taught anything worthwhile as far as combat efficiency is concerned.
If any of you Big Hitters out there have anything else to add,please do it now or forever hold you peace.
I hope GM Kan has'nt paid off any of you Big Hitters to be quiet with his Millions.
Has GM Kans millions bought your silence?

Also it would be nice if one of you clever guys/girls out there could summarise the main points of this thread,the good and bad points of GM Kan as a reference for future students.(Mainly bad)
Thanks guys.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: alvestonthomas Date: 2/5/2003 12:33:06 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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dear alveston thomas, bollocks
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: horses fossil Date: 2/6/2003 12:40:09 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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raman give it a rest.go abuse someone else, we are tired of your negativity.find a bum buddy and give it a rest. why dont you try
needlepoint.its all you raman, all in your little head.
you think we are going to believe a thread written by aliases!!!!!
hah !
G.M. Kan is the man

old chinese saying... he who have high tan sao have no bollocks...
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 3/4/2003 4:55:12 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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VK Observation Report to 1st March 2003

Sifu Kans attitude towards his students was bearable in the month of January but it has changed for the worse in the last few weeks. His abusive verbal reprimands of his senior students is a bit disheartning to the junior students.
Some members of the student union are asking if the fee for the lessons should be reduced to a figure between 5 pounds to 8 pounds per lesson as it has been proven that Sifu Kan was only taught very briefly by GM Yip Man and those photos ? Some student union members are having trouble paying the fees at the moment as they are so high.Either they will leave or get banned for arguing about the fees.

I was also told by a senior that two grey sash seniors had been given a temporary ban for twelve months from the school(two asians,Gavin the guy with the nasty kick,this was his second ban from the school and his mate Survindar).I was told their crime was that they were arguing about the fees for the lessons with Sifu Kan.
I'll keep you updated on that but this is what will happen with the other students if the fees for the lessons are not reduced right away.
Next Obsevation Report at the end of March.
I only write once a month or so,so watch out for this imposter who is posting under my name.I thought the imposter would do an Observation report last month but he knew better.Don't make me come and find you.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 3/5/2003 9:02:56 PM IP: 217.33.195.161
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This is all very strange.

Let people vote with their feet. I can't say that I know Mr Kan, but as a senior Wing Chun figure he deserves my respect. Martial arts are built on respect, and whether you like or agree with Victor Kan anyone dedicating their lives to Wing Chun should be respected.

As I've stated in previous postings I hate the idea of exorbitant pricing structure, paying extra to learn 'secret techniques' etc. But I still have the utmost respect for anyone dedicating their lives to their art, be it Wing Chun or whatever.

If you don't like what's being taught, leave. You don't have to agree with your seniors, you don't even have to like them. But you do have to show them a little respect. And you appear not to be doing this.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: third person Date: 3/6/2003 11:00:16 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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To Bong South
this thread is being perpetuated by an ex student who shall remain nameless for legal reasons.
he was kicked out of the school for reasons that lead to a conviction and a restraining order by the police.
He is using this forum to attack v kan.
he is a script writer ,and often adopts different names and characters to write his own replies to his attacks...
check out radical gypsy email returns ...this guy is a twit

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 3/9/2003 5:35:51 AM IP: 80.46.177.206
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Well, fair enough. But this thread is now as compelling as a road traffic accident; I can't wait for the next riddiculous installment. And given that it now takes me 3 years just to scroll to the end of it I shall say this and only this:

PLEASE!!! FOR THE SAKE OF MY SANITY IF NOTHING ELSE, STOP CONTRIBUTING!!! I can't go out, my wife is divorcing me, my son shows me no respect. And why? Because I just sit by the computer all day waiting for the moderators to stop watching old kung fu films and release more installments of this fascinating insight into human nature.

I beg of you all; don' make my son an orphan. Stop this nonsense now.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 3/10/2003 6:18:33 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Bong South what type of twat are you?,how many brain cells have you got?,can I count them on one hand?
'Show Kan respect for dedicating his life to Ving Tsun',What about showing respect to your postman who does the job for life,or a bus driver,taxi driver etc.You twat,Kan is only teaching Ving Tsun because it is more financially viable to do so,a few hours a week,rip off students and make the next million.
I hate these twats like Bong South who take up kung fu and think they are some type of DIY philosopher.Twat.
Kans time wasting techniques,step in and palm,as mentioned before,another is the side kick,he will show it in ten different ways,but it will only work in one of those ways.

Also I am glad he's banned that twat with the fast palm,he should have done it years ago.I know I can block his palm using my new blocking technique.
Don't wait for him to reduce his prices just leave,your Kung fu will improve.Go anywhere,don't be awed as he is a millionaire,all that means is you twats and sheep out there is that he is not interested in teaching,he's got no incentive to turn out good students.

I got a new book the other day - Pointing Finger about Wong Shong Leung by Dave Peterson.
A little food for thought Page 60,a couple of lines ,sorry Dave Peterson,copyright etc.Hopefully it might improve sales,go buy it.
Right on Page 60 Wong Shong Leung says:-
" Yip Man found that the wealthy people who could afford his lessons were not on the whole the best material to work with,lacking the sort of drive that would create a good fighter,because of their realtively comfortable lifestyle(eg.Victor Kan the millionaire).
Once he began teaching the less advantaged by reducing the fees to an affordable level,Yip man began to get the students that appreciated what wing chun had to offer.
Wong Shong Leung being a construction worker with a fighters background proved to be one such student.
Yip Man however still taught in the old way,giving very little to all but a very select group.The group was made up of those students who at least in his opinion showed a better than average intelligence and who were willing to challenge ideas and to test the techniques in realistic conditions.(Kan just hid in the gym).
Most other students were generally ignored and received little direct instruction from the Grandmaster Yip Man "(Kan was ignored?)

You been conned you twats.

Don't try to blame this on some scriptwriter as it happened before he was even born and the scriptwriter did'nt ask Kan to go to Leung Sheungs classes and stand for that photo.
I could be wrong the scriptwriter may have got Wong Shong Leung and Dave Peterson to cook this up before he was born.
You TWATS.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: third person Date: 3/12/2003 2:10:35 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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see what I mean.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 3/13/2003 12:30:02 AM IP: 217.33.195.161
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Very eloquant, INTWERPRETER. I counted the work twat(s) 7 times, 4 instances of which were directed at me. Nice to see that Kung Fu is still broadening and enriching the minds of its practitioners.

Just for the record I don't regard myself as a DIY philosopher. My 'philosophy', such as it is, has been shaped my my family, my upbringing, and my SiFu. You are entitled to you opinion (and more than welcome to it), but you don't know me. To make such a vicious judgement on my nature without any facts apart from what I write here does little but degrade your own arguments.

I practice Wing Chun for several reasons, I'm sure that we all do. But one of these reasons is to help me to control my temprament, and to use the Chi Kung aspect of it to be a more focused individual. Which, for me, is the whole point. I don't do Wing Chun so that I can argue that my dad is bigger or better than anyone elses, so I won't bother trying.

Here's some tin-pot philosophy for you. Even of you don't agree with everyone elses opinion, try to understand it. If you can't even understand it, who's losing out, you or them?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Real VK Observer Date: 3/17/2003 3:35:20 AM IP: 80.189.4.44
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After 3 years of gossip of GM Kan in this forum, GM Kan has shown even more of his supreme Grandmastership. Very serious teaching in class, but very friendly to talk to afterwards.

Victor Kan, Victor Kan, Victor Kan. The whole Wing Chun world is talking about you, healous of you and admiring you. You are the Ving Tsun Superman. One has to find out for himself. 25 for 3 lessons. This a very reasonable price to learn genuine V.T. from Yip Man? best student.

For my imposters: How Sifu Kan teaches his senior students is none of you, or the junior's business. You just can't understand it if you don't know the background which is above your level. It's a mixed grade class - each different grade of student should mind their own business and concentrate on learning and practicing what they have been taught. But not to nosey around. This will only slow down their improvement.

If you think Sifu Kan was only taught very briefly by the Late Great Grandmaster Yip Man, then why the hell do you stay in his school for over 3 years? Deep down you must know that he is the best in the world. We just can't understand why you keep critisizing him and make your silly phoney reports.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Admirer Date: 3/17/2003 3:36:02 AM IP: 80.189.4.44
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INTWERPRETER - I delivered D. Peterson's book to GM Kan by hand after my visit to Australia last year. Inside the book, in Mr. Peterson's in words was his admiration and respect to GM Kan. He also said that he had heard many compliments from his Sifu, Wong Sheung Leung, about Sifu Kan.

Stop fabricating stories for your own revenge. You twat.

Boy, what a good decision it was that GM V.Kan made by kicking scum like you out of his school.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: londoner Date: 3/18/2003 5:58:12 AM IP: 80.194.89.254
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Wow. There seems to be a lot of VK slating going on. It seems quite unbeleivable that this thread has lasted for 190 replies. E warrior, i bet you wished you had not started this thread at all! Why dont you guys concentrate on your training and let VK students worry about theirs. Because i am sure at the end of the day, while you are talking, they are training.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudentunion member Date: 3/18/2003 8:18:43 PM IP: 81.6.218.201
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okay so what makes him the best in the world at wing chun?

how is he the king of chi sao?

How is his wing chun so genuine?

All propaganda.

Why is kan being discussed on this forum? The same why saddam hussein is being discussed about. not good reasons. hey is kan related to saddam, they look similar.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudentunion member Date: 3/19/2003 10:38:27 PM IP: 81.6.218.201
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So because we spend a couple of minutes answering a thread on a forum, we dont concerntrate on training. What a rubbish arguement londoner. Remember whilst your surfing the net your not training, go do the sil lim tao for 30 minutes to understand the mysteries behind it.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Student Union Date: 3/20/2003 9:17:31 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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The VK Student Union gives Sifu Tony Blair it's full support against the war against Iraq.

Free the Iraq people and the world of this madman.

Best Wishes too all our troops out there,cane them hard,get up it my son.Don't take any prisoners.

Once Saddam is finished I urge Sifu Tony Blair to look over Lambeth Bridge as there is another tyrant who needs to be dealt with - Kan.
Sifu Blair in future look closer to home for these tyrants.
Don't trust people with moustaches,they are hiding behind something.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Nao Date: 3/21/2003 5:09:47 PM IP: 61.197.43.165
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This is the best comparison of Victor Kan, Saddam Hussein! I am glade someone else has said it before me.

Another one was good GM Leung Ting, Geneticly Modified Wing Chun Grandmaster!! enjoy
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 3/22/2003 8:36:37 PM IP: 80.189.13.82
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Londoner - I don't regret starting this thread at all. The more idiotic and outlandish some people's arguments have got the more they have just helped to strengthen my faith in my Sifu.

It's now obvious that VK Observer is just trying to distort the truth. Gavin WAS kicked out (not for the first time) but it wasn't over fees. He was ejected because he was doing silly techniques that ain't Wing Chun. GM Kan did't care if he messed up his own Kung Fu, but wasn't prepared to let him mess up the other sixth grades. Also, Survindar wasn't, to my knowledge, banned from the organisation. He just hasn't trained for a long time.

As for this Sadam Hussein tyrant business, I assume you guys are just having a laugh. I don't care if what Sifu Kan looks like. Also, the difference between Iraq and the "tyrant of Lambeth" is that you don't have to train at VKCVT or even visit Lambeth. The Iraqi people, on the other hand, have no choice.

By the way, although I'm not a pacifist by any means, I'm against this war we've got ourselves into. If you think it's about freeing the Iraqi people, then you're more naive that I could ever have imagined. Just look at the track record of the Americans in the rest of the Middle East to see what I mean. Saddam is being attacked not because he's a nasty tyrant, but because in the eyes of the Americans he's the wrong nasty tyrant. In fact, the last thing they want in Iraq is democracy. Of course, we've heard a lot about the tyranny of the Iraqi leader, but very little of the tyranny of Bush (arm bending, ignoring public world opinion, attempting to buy votes in the UN security council etc. etc.). It doesn't surprise me that the jerks on this forum are siding with the hypocricsy of the Downing Street Poodle.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer(The Real One,stop cloning me) Date: 3/25/2003 9:44:37 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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It's true VK does run that school like Saddam runs Iraq,trying to put fear into students so they don't speak out.Then having seniors going around bullying juniors into keeping quiet and getting dickheads like e-warrior and Lomax mouthing off for him on this forum.But at last people are speaking out against this fake.
Traning at Kans will guarantee that the sil lim tau will remain a mystery to all the students who train under him.
VK Admirer, Intwerpreter has made a valid point,Wong Sheung Leung may have spoken highly of Kan,but GM Yip Man had no respect for these wealthy students,fullstop.
I don't know why Wong Sheung Leung speaks highly of Kan,it certainly can't be for his Ving Tsun skill or his fighting ability.
I can well understand why these rich kids are no use.They get everything handed on a plate to them.
When I was at VK the guys on low wages could not afford the fees and they left.These guys were labourers and other manual workers,they were great to train with,they put up a good fight and were fit.Since they left,all that were left were office workers who gave up or were out of puff after a few minutes.
At least VK did learn something from Yip Man,to rip off rich students with private lessons etc,a good example of these lucky money fairyes are Roland the rat and that guy in the red sports car.
They paid for sash after sash,I think the guy in the red sports car is a black sash now(he might have a porsh now),but everyone at the school knows they can be bettered by any one of the yellow sashes.
Shame on you VK.
So don't waste your money on private lessons etc.

Disgraceful breakdown of the school.
All I know is that in the last few years 15 black sashes(not 3 like e-warrior suggested) have left,30 to 40 pink to red sashes have left.
I've heard that there are juniors going around asking other juniors if they doing the moves correctly.
The ones who have left have joined WSL schools,Sam Kwok and Kevin Chan.Some are going to VK as well to the above schools.I know a couple of VK students are being taught by some chinese guy at his home.This guys supposed to be very good and was teaching one of Vk seniors but he's got a few more students due to word of mouth as he's good.Invitation only.I will dig around so I get an invite to meet him.
Intwerpreter you are slightly mistaken about the step in being a time wasting ,moneymaker for VK.
I think VK AND the STUDENTS doing the stepping in and palm are to blame for wasting time and money on that move.
The students get too caught up in wanting to hit each other and they forget about technique and forget what the hell they are supposed to be doing.VK can see whats happening but he just stays quiet as its lucky money for him,the longer the students keep that up the better for him.
A good timewaster of VK was the twist stance(start of the second form for example).That move is being taught incorrectly.VK gets his students to spin on their heels and hope for the best.The chances of them stopping in the correct place are slim.I saw plenty of people getting very frustated,wasting time and money and finally leaving because of that.
And before any of you ask,the correct way is to shift the weight from foot to foot,not spin and hope for the best.When you shift the weight correctly and at speed it will look like you are spinning from side to side. Should you receive an impact from the side while you are in mid-turn you will not fly off,your stance will be soild.
Vk will never mention this to you as I don't think he was ever shown this correctly,he just copied it from someone from a distance and in combat it will be disastarous.
Ving Tsun is an exact science.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: David Lomax Date: 3/27/2003 6:44:26 PM IP: 81.135.53.31
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Your posts would be more credible if you had a better grasp of basic spelling and grammer you clown.I hope your gung fu is of a higher standard then the prattish drivel you write here.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: StudentUnionmember Date: 3/27/2003 8:27:56 PM IP: 81.6.243.66
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Who is e-warrior? If Kan's so great why do you not use your real name like Lomax, I mean you don't have anything to hide.

Except you call yourself "e-warrior" (aka Electronic warrior), in other words a wimp.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Truth teller Date: 3/27/2003 9:41:15 PM IP: 217.155.84.14
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When considering the merits of a school and comparing it to others there are a number of factors to be taken into account. These are:
1)cost,
2)training atmosphere i.e. is it friendly, competitive, aggressive etc.
3)distance i.e. ease of travel,
4)quality of instruction.

Now all these factors interrelate with one another and cannot be considered in isolaton e.g. a school may have excellent instruction but be very expensive or be cheap but be too far away etc.

But as far as i can tell people seem to have taken issue with Kan's school on all these factors.

However leaving aside the issue of distance it seems to me that people should weigh up the quality of the instruction against the atmosphere and the cost. If they feel that the former does not compensate for the latter 2 factors then they should leave and find somewhere else. There are plenty of other schools around (personally i can't recommend Clive Potter in St Albans enough if you can make it there from London). However if they're happy to pay the fees and to put up with the atmosphere then fine, stay. Either way this continuous bickering should stop.

Slightly off point, as regards Iraq some interesting facts that people should know are
1) U.S. sponsored sanctions have killed around 500,000 iraqi children over the last 12 years. When asked about this Secretary of state Madeline Albreicht (Colin Powell's predecessor)didn't deny it. Instead she said it was 'an acceptable price to pay'.
2) Scott Ritter a former marine and head of the un weapons inspection team for 7 years until 1998 said that in that time they verifiably destroyed or put beyond use 90-95% of iraq's WMD's and that the remaining weapons would now be ineffective because chemical weapons only last for about 5 years and biological weapons for about 3.
3) Just before the invasion of Kuwait Saddam had a meeting with the u.s. ambassador and brought up the issue of kuwait (who had been undercutting iraq with oil exports). She repiled that 'the u.s. has no opinion on any arab/arab conflict'. Saddam mistakenly interpreted this as a green light for invasion.
4) Saddam did not kick the inspectors out in 1998. They were withdrawn after it emerged that they had been infiltrated by Mossad and C.I.A spies collecting sensitive information on Baath party movements.
5) Ever since the imposition of the no fly zones in northern iraq the worst violater of Kurdish rights has not been Iraq but Turkey. In 1998 Turkish troops went on a rampage and killed many kurds, displaced many more and burnt villages. Turkey like Israel remains a key strategic ally of the west and a leading recepient of arms.
6) America consumes 20 million barrels of oil daily but only produces 8 million. Moreover while America's consumption of oil is rising its reserves are running out (this is why they are drilling in Alaska). So at some point in the near future they will be wholly dependant on imports. Iraq after Saudi Arabia has the second largest oil reserves in the world. Moreover, the saudi regime is deeply unpopular and may be toppled at any time (like the shah in iran). So it won't do to depend on Saudi oil for much longer.

From these facts (and they are facts. Don't believe me, check them for yourselves) you can draw your own conclusions.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 3/30/2003 9:44:35 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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VK Observer are you trying to insult my intelligence?
Would that mean that when he came back after twelve months the fees would be lower? I don't think so.
So something just did'nt add up.Know what I am saying?
Also vey frustrating to do palm and block with.Has good block and fast palm.I asked where he had learnt to do the block and palm,as it certainly was not at Kans.I could never get a straight answer from him.All he said was it was the Buddah Palm.Twat.
There are also two other seniors who can do the palm and block properly,I am sure neither of them learnt to do it at Kans.I know one of them is training somewhere else for sure.
Vk Observer is that incorrect flat fook sau,is that still being taught at Kans school?
You are a traitor to the country as well as to your fellow students.
Saddam is bad news and needs to be got rid of at whatever cost.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: hardcase Date: 3/31/2003 1:15:56 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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its clear you clowns dont like to try your stuff.these fighters you kicked out would have done your club the world of good ,some who does this kind of thing has got his head screwed on right their most likely geared up not for just the attack but to counter it where as you lot are just a bunch of actors in a b movie,your master is scared of real kung fu fighters because they fight back meat ball,or it may be that they show the faults in his style because of its limitations,all the best il be training for my next fight in may in germany im the to tough in the ring 2nd to last fight ,sorry i cant spell E-muppet.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 4/3/2003 9:24:54 PM IP: 80.189.13.92
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In the airy-fairy world of the forum troll, where diamonds are dross and glass is precious, let's dispense with the mirrors and smoke and come down to earth with a bump by applying some ugly logic and common sense.

1. Sifu Kan runs his school like Saddam runs Iraq.
Totally ludicrous since no one is forced to train there. Even dafter is the assertion that the seniors have authority to juniors into "keeping quiet".

2. Training at Kans will guarantee the SNT will remain a mystery.
Have found that it's the like of Old Timer that lack real knowledge. He doesn't know that by their very nature, these "mysteries" are internal and cannot be explained by a teacher. All the sifu can do is give you the tools to experience them first hand.

3.Wong Sheung Leung's praise of GM Kan wasn't for his Kung Fu/fighting ability.
Yes it was. I quote:
"When I write this article, I do not expect any pay for an author, nor have I received any gift from Mr. Victor Kan. Only I do not want to see a man of true talent left unknown by the people. Any man of true worth should be presented to society so that people who are learning the Ving Tsun style will not kneel to the wrong teacher. It should be good news to foreigners who wish to learn the Ving Tsun style." - Wong Sheung Leung, from an article in a 1978 issue of "Secrets of Kung Fu.

4.Ip Man had no respect for "rich kids because they have everything handed on a plate to them".
Funny when he came from a rich background himself - he offered Chan Wa Shun 500 silver dollars to learn Ving Tsun. This was enough to buy several houses at the time. See "Ip Man - Portrait of a Kung Fu Master" by R Heimberger and Ip Ching page 4, last paragraph.

5. Private lessons.
"At least VK did learn something from Yip Man,to rip off rich students with private lessons etc".
So you're slagging off Ip Man now? Doesn't surprise me one bit. Roland ain't rich by the way. And private lessons in any walk of life will be more expensive because you get individual attention.
Then there's the labourers who can't afford VKCVT fees. Most of his current students are manual workers who train regularly. As for office workers who are out of breath quickly, VK's current top student ain't a brickie.
There's also the seniors who can be beaten by any of the lower grades. Yet you later state (see point 7.) that the yellow sashes are asking each other how the moves go. Doesn't quite add up, does it?

6."disgraceful breakdown of the school"
I quote from your own words: "All I know is that in the last few years 15 black sashes(not 3 like e-warrior suggested) have left,30 to 40 pink to red sashes have left.".
Excuse me while I stitch my sides back from laughter. There aren't many schools in existence of ANY lineage that even have that many students. And it WAS about 3-5 black shirts that went - he still has a respectable number of people 7th grade and above and some have returned. NB I can name those handful that left if necessary - perhaps you'd like to put names to your fifteen.

7."I've heard that there are juniors asking other juniors if they are doing the moves correctly"

Well, you might have heard it pal, but it ain't true. I ask you - who in their right minds would ask someone of lesser or similar ability if their technique is correct. I'd ask the sifu, his assistant or a senior. Which is what happens.

8. The 6th grade stepping in caper.
For your information, the object of the step and palm hit exercise IS to attempt to strike the opponent but with correct technique and without using brute strength - Sifu Kan is quick to warn his students not to force their way in when successfully blocked which demolishes your assertion that he doesn't say anything when they make mistakes. In fact, this keeping quite bit is at odds with your statement that he puts the fear of god into his students (a la Saddam). I can assure you, when he chi-saus with a student, every tiny mistake is picked on. It's difficult to see what's happening in sticking hands - it really has to be felt.

9. The twist stance time waster.
As well as chi-sau, you don't understand the basics of the twist stance. We don't "spin on our heels and hope for the best". We turn and I've had few problems stopping in the right place. And the weight shifts from one leg to the other. Don't know of people leaving because of this technique.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 4/3/2003 9:34:16 PM IP: 80.189.13.92
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studentunionmember -
It's rich you criticing me for using an alias when "studentunionmember" isn't your real name either. I believe in playing on a level field - if the trolls use false names then so do I. They've already got one unfair advantage - the concealment of their sifu's identities. I suspect they're afraid of revealing which particular yoyos they're "training" with.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: MoD Insider Date: 4/6/2003 2:50:05 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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When you gentlemen start using words like Saddam.Mossad,CIA etc you will attract the attention of several Goverment Departments.Their soul purpose is to monitor and read any thing and everything.
All I will say is that e-warrior and Truth Teller and the million or so people who went on the anti war march are not aware of the the real reason why the UK and US went in to Iraq so suddenly.
Why indeed?Is Saddam such a threat.

Bush and Blair may have saved the world by going in when they did.

Truth Teller it is nothing to do with oil,they have already found other energy sources which are more reliable than oil and nuclear power.(refer to the works of Nikola Tesla).
They went in to Iraq because they were aware that Saddam had biological and chemical weapons,which were carried by missiles up to a range of 150 miles.That you may say is no danger to anyone in the UK.
But Saddams plan was to fire the rockets straight up into the sky.With a range of 150 miles,they would easily reach the height required by Saddam so the biological and chemical weapons could be dispersed by the Earths weather system (BWP) to every corner of the Earth.
Within a few weeks it would have got into the Food Chain and the human race would have been in serious trouble.More people would have died than really needed and there would be no control over the deaths.Saddam is the type of person,where if he's going to die,he will take everyone with him.
Also it would have created worldwide panic,and terror.Not to mention a wide range of civilian unrest eg.Half the residents of Brixton and other inner city areas in the UK and the world over going on free shopping trips,ram raids,and murder and mayhem.
To police that it would have taken too many resources.In my opinion it would not have been possible to police it.

The real truth behind the invasion of Iraq will never be released.

Even now Saddam is confident of winning but the US have a plan to combat this biological weather dispersal plan (BWP) of Saddam.

So all these do gooders who want to live in peace,they make me laugh.Humans cannot live in peace.
It would have been interesting and a laugh to see the faces of all those people on the anti-war marches,their families and friends if Saddam had suceeded in his Biological Weather Plan.I think their faces would have been slightly green and covered in small pox.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: horse has turned to oil deposit Date: 4/6/2003 2:01:09 PM IP: 24.239.129.143
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hah
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: hardcase Date: 4/11/2003 5:49:39 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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about what palm it want work,as for students who at this school with good this that palm should leave and start their own school and rip students off just like all wing chun cowboys, put your skills to the test in k-1 or cage fights or retire to sunny climates
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudentunionmember. Date: 4/11/2003 7:52:56 PM IP: 81.6.216.83
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e-warrior, you have nothing to hide, the studentunion members do. Your all praise for your sifu, yet you hide, not proud of your school enough to use your real name. If we are trolls, why are the acting the same? Puts you on our level doesn't it. At least Lomax knows where he stands.

1. Kan's school is how its run, I think enough threads with first hand experience demonstrate that to people reading them. He looks like Saddam.

2. Sil lin tao is the core basic wing chun arm movements and basic structure strung together in a form so its easily remembered. I dont know why people see more into it then that. Just keep practising it, it doesn't teach you how to cultivate chi. You'll get better structure and muscle memory for the arm movements the more you do it.

3. I think Kan teaches wing chun the way he learnt it and wong sheung leung praised that in 1978 if the quote is genuine. In 2003, his teaching is expensive, slow, with obviously alot of class politics with students very unhappy.

4. Who knows what yip man was like. He had many students all who now teach different styles of authentic yip man, all political fighting inbetween themselves. He taught who paid him. None of this, pass the character test before being allowed into the school.

5. Its like europeans always have this myth of old masters from the east. They were humans, dedicated, gifted, like the atheletes today in their respective sports. Roland paid 10 grand to learn the bil jee from mr Kan. He is rich with a nice sports car. Martin has been with Kan 21 years, longer then roland. He's always at the school, dedicated, but doesn't have that 10 grand. You decide.

6. The best fighters left, Garfield and the like. Quality fighters. Kan could barely handle them at chi sao and they were being nice. A good teacher wants his students to be better then him. Kan couldn't stand anyone to reach his standard. I mean can you imagine the king of chi sao getting hit? Please, no ones unhitable.

7. Kan's students thats who.

8. Every tiny mistake is picked on, but he's also inconsistent, teaching slightly different ways everytime. I guess to keep you on your toes, to always have something to critize.

9. Well if the occassion ever calls for a twist punch, your already out of position. Expect to get hit or thrown to the ground.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Truth teller Date: 4/14/2003 7:17:23 PM IP: 217.155.84.14
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Mod insider
I find your 'arguments' frankly laughable.

'All I will say is that e-warrior and Truth Teller and the million or so people who went on the anti war march are not aware of the the real reason why the UK and US went in to Iraq so suddenly.'

All i can say is that if i don't know the real reason then i assume that cook must given that he was foreign secretary for two years and was presumably privy to any information that jack straw is privy to now (by the way rumsfeld, perle etc have been wanting to invade iraq since 1996 when they made a proposal to that effect to clinton, so 'recent' information isn't a relevant consideration in their reasons for invading). Cook said in his resignation speech that there is no credible threat from iraq either to the west or its neighbours.

'Bush and Blair may have saved the world by going in when they did'.

Or they may have put it at a greater risk from proliferation of nuclear arms, instability in the middle east and of course terrorism.

'Truth Teller it is nothing to do with oil,they have already found other energy sources which are more reliable than oil and nuclear power.'

This is a non sequiter. The fact that there are other sources of energy doesn't mean that it has nothing to do with oil. On the contrary as i have said america consumes 20 million barrels of oil a day (making it the largest consumer in the world) and that figure is steadily increasing. Also why is it that they have enough troops to guard oil wells but not to protect hospitals from looters. If you want an indication of their priorities (human rights v oil) there it is. Moreover, you must have a short memory if you don't remember a certain kyoto agreement to do with emissions of fossil fuels i.e. oil that bush pulled out of because it would 'damage the economy'. If there are other sources of fuel so readily available then why pull out of the agreement?

'They went in to Iraq because they were aware that Saddam had biological and chemical weapons,which were carried by missiles up to a range of 150 miles'

The missiles you are refering to were illegal but saddam agreed (under pressure it should be noted) to destroy them. However we were told by the americans that this was too little too late and that they were going to invade anyway.

'But Saddams plan was to fire the rockets straight up into the sky.With a range of 150 miles,they would easily reach the height required by Saddam so the biological and chemical weapons could be dispersed by the Earths weather system (BWP) to every corner of the Earth.'

This is just paranoid nonsense not least because if the weather were so affected then iraq would also suffer. Please remember Saddam is a despicable man but he isn't insane or suicidal. At the time of the last gulf war he was told that if was to use chemical or biological weapons against Britain or America then there would be a nuclear strike on baghdad. The threat worked then so why wouldn't it work now? Moreover I refer you to the testimony of scott ritter on the threat posed by iraqs weapons programme. Here is one quote:

RITTER: Well, look: As of December 1998 we had accounted for 90 to 95 percent of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capability -- "we" being the weapons inspectors. We destroyed all the factories, all of the means of production and we couldn't account for some of the weaponry, but chemical weapons have a shelf-life of five years. Biological weapons have a shelf-life of three years. To have weapons today, they would have had to rebuild the factories and start the process of producing these weapons since December 1998.

SWEENEY: And how do we know that hasn't been happening?

RITTER: We don't, but we cannot go to war on guesswork, hypothesis and speculation. We go to war on hardened fact. So Tony Blair says he has a dossier; present the dossier. George W. Bush and his administration say they know with certainty; show us how you know.

Q.E.D i think

Truth teller

Also you say

'Half the residents of Brixton and other inner city areas in the UK and the world over going on free shopping trips,ram raids,and murder and mayhem.'

There seems to be something of a rascist sub text here as with everything else you have written i.e. fear of what the 'other' might do to 'us'.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 4/15/2003 3:30:53 AM IP: 80.189.6.64
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MoD Insider - for the record, I never went on any of the anti-war marches.

As of writing (14/04/03) the war in Iraq is drawing to a close and it's good they got rid of Saddam. But to suggest he was on the verge of some global "Biological Weather Plan" is just plain daft. Years of crippling sanctions have meant that his military and civilian infrastructure were both more or less out of action. Anyone can see that, considering the lack of resistance the coalition forces met.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Tommy Date: 4/23/2003 6:51:31 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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If Kan is so great why are his students taking classes with Kamon.
If Kan is great, why is he dominated by money.
If Kan is great, why are his students on a forum telling the world he's a bad sifu.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Concerned Date: 4/27/2003 6:03:43 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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By starting this thread you have brought the reputation of Sifu Kans school to its lowest point.You have planted the seeds of doubt in many peoples minds.

Now you are trying to start a war of words by commenting about the politics of local goverment and world goverments with your comments about Blair and Bush.
Don't you think you have done enough damage with your comments on kung fu politics?Do you want this thread to go up to 300 hits?
Does Sifu Kan know who you are and that you are stirring up trouble on this forum?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 5/1/2003 2:31:57 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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The reputation of Victor Kans School was built upon the aggressive nature of the likes of Derek Jones and Michael Street.
If these guys only learnt to play hop scotch and done no kung fu at all, they would have still been very hard to beat in a fight, even for a trained martial artist.
Kan was lucky that they walked in to his dojo.This is how the school got it? good reputation.
Derek Jones was not happy with Kans teaching methods and states this on his video.
In the last ten years the school has not been tested on the standard of its kung fu against another Ving Tsun School.
There has been a lot of hot air and trumpet blowing about Kan being the King of chi sao etc and about how good his students and teaching are, but these claims have not been tested of late.
I think what he teaching is just a moneymaking exercise for him and time wasting exercise for his students.
As long as another school never tests his students, Kan can harp on about how good his kung fu is and keep conning students.
Kan will make sure at what ever cost that none of his students are ever tested against other schools, because as soon as any of his students lose, then the games up. The ones attending other schools are banned or given a hard time until they leave as they could highlight how bad Kans kung fu really is.
The school lost several promising students because they were banned and several others(including seniors) left in disgust.
The remaining students suffered as they ended up training with less people who had mature techniques . In other words the remaining students ended up stagnating with newcomers and other juniors.The seniors saw juniors catching them up and then they tall stagnated together.
The only students I heard about being tested by students from another school are Lomax who entered some competition secretly under his own steam and once on the instruction of Kan, being defeated soundly on both occasions. Any of the seniors will verify this.
More recently Master Philip Bayer easily beat Garfield and Spencer.
How do you think they felt, after all those years of training and all that money spent on Kans lessons?
This highlights the con that Kan is running at that school.
So why did Garfield and Spencer get beaten so easily?
They are both very fit ,strong , fast and aggressive. Like Derek Jones or Michael Street if neither of them had done any kung fu, I am sure either one of them could go to Kans school and beat every student there, one after the other, any day of the week.
So why did these two fighting machines get beaten so easily?
It? because they were programmed with bad data or incomplete data/information.That? why.
Without even mentioning Master Bayers disability ,this highlights a big problem within the Victor Kan system.
Some of his students are not aware of this. The students who are aware are not too worried as they know they will never be tested on it from an outside school .Unless of course someone like John Raman or Vk observer come along.
The students who are aware don? care what they learn as they are happy in basking in the reputation of the exploits of previous students.
Garfield and Spencer could have been a hell of a lot better if they had trained with WSL,orTST or IP Ching.
Real students of Yip Man.
In addition there is no empashis at Kans school on cardio vascular training or conditioning or sparring, which is a big mistake. These are vital components for fighting.
Most of his students are just standing around looking at themselves in the mirrors, wondering what am I supposed to be doing? I feel sorry for those juniors paying so much for so little.
But I forgot Kans only interested in making money, he doesn? want to stress these office worker types too much incase they leave because that? where the money is.
I just hope that these office worker types are never tested against another school, it could be painful.
If you don? want to learn to fight,go to Victor Kans.
I noticed that some people are complaining about my spelling,I hope I spelt FAKE and CON ARTIST correctly!


Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: joker Date: 5/3/2003 4:15:52 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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when your the best everyone tries to knock you down.
Boxers are well known for this.
ex students with bruised egos ?
when you are trained by someone who tells you to your face your crap and need to improve you dont make friends.
but you do get good students who can put away their egos.
this is the longest thread Ive seen so he must have something.
after 25 years and still getting bigger...
some of the best coaches in the world are reputed to be tough uncompromising and can be seen as abusive ...but they do bring out the best in those who look for it.
the doors arent locked you come you go, its your decision , no games.if you want a teacher to show you how to kick and punch your way out of a serious situation your man.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudent Date: 5/3/2003 6:17:14 PM IP: 81.6.225.206
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If e-warrior was a lawyer, he'd win the case for the opposition. haha
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudent Date: 5/6/2003 8:29:11 PM IP: 81.6.243.251
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Hey but Joker, u forgot one thing: wheres the results??

U go on about the great coaches and how they are uncompromising, strict, etc. The usual trying to make an arguement without any facts.

FACTS: Kan isn't a tough in your face push you to the limit guy when he teaches, his classes are half hearted, he doesn't teach much. He doesn't push you. His classes are leisurely. U learn at a very slow pace. He sits at his desk, walks around, looks in the mirror correcting his hair. Five minutes of group practice basic moves at the end. And who has he trained that can claim his methods to fame???

No one.

Kan students who are pro him, stop comparing him to what ever and who ever, like coaches (unnamed??) and using big words like "uncompromising." When the facts of what Kan's lessons are like speak for themselves. Answer my factual points about his classes.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: joker Date: 5/12/2003 5:05:09 AM IP: 68.38.217.58
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its not about fame [ego]
its a personal thing.
i wont use any large words , I'll make it simple for you.
the best.
if YOU dont think so, pay your money for a chi sao lesson
with G.M. Kan and find out PERSONALLY .Advanced lesson available.
FEEL PERSONALLY, not from 3rd hand 215 thread on a forum.
scared ....you will be .
?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vk beginner Date: 5/14/2003 6:23:25 AM IP: 24.239.129.143
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hi I am a grade 1 , I have just been learning kicking.
I have a friend who does thai boxing ,he kept taking the mick out
of my kungfu. So I asked one of Sifu Kans seniors what to do. He said
just kick him in the balls when you spar with him.
IT WORKED !! after he kicked me in the thigh I just landed my new front kick on him, I thought I'd killed him!
no rules works on the street.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudent Date: 5/18/2003 7:38:13 PM IP: 195.112.34.126
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I think the name implies something here.

Your a joker.

I'm a VKstudent. I have touched hands with Kan, I go to his school. I am a grey sash. I have taken private lessons. I have been there long enough to know what its like.

I probably know you joker if u go to Kans school in lambeth.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 5/20/2003 5:22:30 PM IP: 82.43.56.97
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Right Old Timer (2003/5/1) - I'll answer the main points:

"The reputation of Victor Kans School was built upon the aggressive nature of the likes of Derek Jones and Michael Street."

Wrong. They weren't the only students that trained under Sifu Kan who helped build the reputation of the school. And we've got new guys coming through all the time who are promising in their own right.

"Derek Jones was not happy with Kans teaching methods and states this on his video"
Couldn't care less. It's just one person's opinion (or should I say politics?).
"In the last ten years the school has not been tested on the standard of its kung fu against another Ving Tsun School."

Wasn't aware that there was some on going competition between us and the rest of the world. Actually, you're wrong anyway. A few have visited other schools and stuck hands - people you're not aware of.

After he left VK, Pasco apparently visited Wong to finish the system. He asked how much money and how much time he would need. Wong's answer? "How much time and how much money have you got?" So don't keep telling me Sifu Kan is a grasping bean counter and Wong and other sifus were/are a paragon of virtue. Everyone thinks about money. It's called Capitalism. The big C is the reason guys like you mistake methodical, traditional teaching (which takes time) with a scam. In fact, it's people like you who keep on about ?oney making exercises?who are really concerned about the dough.

"Kan will make sure at what ever cost that none of his students are ever tested against other schools, because as soon as any of his students lose, then the games up"

And how does he do that? By keeping us locked up or something? Ah - of course. I forgot. He's brainwashed us! See point number three.

"The school lost several promising students because they were banned and several others(including seniors) left in disgust."

What students? Name them. The only ?anned?student I know of was Gavin who mucked about. Oh and a few seniors have recently returned to the fold.

"Seniors watching juniors catching up with them and then everyone stagnating".

It's obvious from this that you don't know the basics of Life let alone Kung Fu. Of course the juniors will catch up eventually. It's what they're there for. I call that progress, not stagnation.

"...Lomax who entered some competition secretly under his own steam and once on the instruction of Kan, being defeated soundly on both occasions. Any of the seniors will verify this."

What competitions? Unless you have proof, don't keep repeating this lie. Oh and you could name the seniors mentioned because none of those I have spoken to know what the heck you're on about. You're just trying to make one of our best students look like he's rubbish.

"More recently Master Philip Bayer easily beat Garfield and Spencer."

Aren't half-truths marvellous? For a start, Spencer, for one, had been away from Sifu kan's for nearly a decade, only training with his mates and his students. So he wasn't sharp. And Bayer knew the whole system, Spencer didn't. So it wasn't due to being "programmed with bad data". Actually, PB complimented Spencer on his sensitivity, something that he didn't get off his new sifu.

"...this highlights a big problem within the Victor Kan system."

Which is what? The fact that you keep on omitting what it is suggests you don't know what it is yourself.

"In addition there is no empashis at Kans school on cardio vascular training or conditioning or sparring, which is a big mistake. These are vital components for fighting."

I don't see the point of going to a martial arts school to do cardio workouts. And what's the big deal about cardio anyway? There's a better exercise. I think they call it Wing Chun. As for sparring we do do it so don't lie.

"Most of his students are just standing around looking at themselves in the mirrors, wondering what am I supposed to be doing?"

No we're not. The idea that VKCVT is full of wheezing office types looking in mirrors is not true. Dave Lomax for example does not fit into that category and most of the people I train with train hard.

"But I forgot Kans only interested in making money, he doesn't want to stress these office worker types too much incase they leave because that's where the money is."

What office worker types? So now it's a crime to have a good job is it? To my knowledge, at least half the sixth grade is composed of manual workers anyway.

"If you don't want to learn to fight,go to Victor Kans."

Saw a couple of seniors do full on chi-sao. It resembled free fighting. It was fast, furious and the average joe on the street wouldn't have stood a chance so if you DO want to learn how to fight, come to VK's kwoon because it's only through learning a practical art correctly that most people will stand a chance of gaining some fighting skills and after all, it's what goes on in Sifu kan's school that really matters, not OldTimer's head.

"I noticed that some people are complaining about my spelling,I hope I spelt FAKE and CON ARTIST correctly! "

Well, you might be able to spell these words but you don't know their true meaning because they apply to you and not VK.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vkstudent Date: 5/24/2003 9:07:48 PM IP: 81.6.225.66
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At the end of the day and 220 posts later, it can be said,

Kan's school is like any other kung fu school. has good and bad points. I think Kan just invites politics with the way he is, like the ad in martial art magazines. king of chi sao, genuine. if only he could let his skills do the talking.

dont expect to come out a fighter if u weren't inclined that way in the beginning anyway. Whilst tough guys like garfield just get tougher learning the methods.

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 5/25/2003 4:49:17 PM IP: 80.192.240.237
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How Philip Bayer beat Spenser and Garfield with only one hand (that's all he's got). Read again the truth of the conspiracy and understand better his politics from MI6 2002/10/30 on this forum:

More Ving Tsun conspiracy and scandal in Germany after Leung Tin and Kernspecht. This German instructor is Phillip Bayer (with one hand) an ex-student of WSL. The real story is actually the opposite of what you hear. Knowing Yip Man told his sons to carry on learning top quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan after his death, and after the incident with Clive Potter in GM Kan's seminar, Bayer knew what he was going to do after Wong's death.

In order to promote his own school and avoid losing face he couldn't just go directly to Sifu Kan. The only way out was to come to London to learn better quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan? ex - students Desmond Spencer and Garfield Watts who had stopped training in VKCVT school for over 10 years. Bayer saved a lot of embarrassment. These two POOR old guys were willing to sell their asses and betray their own parentage for a few dollars. They have no pride at all;

In other words he stole GM Kan's advanced Ving Tsun techniques from these two Black Judases to upgrade himself and his school in Germany in addition to telling this fantasy story of beating these two guys easily with only one hand. A perfect set up. Very clever indeed.

How could Bayer or anyone else's Ving Tsun be good by taking lessons from Wong when he visited Germany once or twice a year?

God save the Queen!
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: e-Warrior Date: 5/25/2003 4:54:46 PM IP: 80.192.240.237
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Seems my post of 2003/5/20 got a little mangled by the forum. Before the paragraph about Pasco there should be the following:

"I think what he is teaching is just a moneymaking exercise for him and time wasting exercise for his students."
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: James Buckle Date: 5/27/2003 4:23:14 PM IP: 217.204.93.212
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E-Warrior,

I have no bones with VK but you really do sound like a man on the defensive. Why don't you check out other Wing Chun clubs in the London area and then report back on this forum.
I'm sure VK is a fine instructor, but it is also my opinion he is not the best in London. Be a little more open and see what others are offering. You will be in a better position to judge VK and his skill and his teaching.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: hardcase Date: 5/28/2003 3:18:45 AM IP: 213.40.131.65
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e_ muppet you should take along look in a mirror and ask what have i learnt to date ,all you wing chun bods do is dream your kung fu will only work on girls even then youll still get slapped,the biggest problem in your school is that your master will not let you progress unless you crawl to him or pay him then teach you any thing ,this is how people dont progress in schools,if one student tries things let himwith guards on .all the best.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 5/28/2003 3:38:48 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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VK Observation Report to 24th May 2003:-

I am sorry it? been so long since the last report.VK? been trying to use a process of elimination to locate me.So I had to be careful so that my identity would not be compromised.Luckily for me VK? little helpers talk far too much within earshot.
All I can say is that the treatment of student union members gradually gets worse as the weeks pass by after each Observation report.
More effort is required to explain techniques clearly and far more time should be spent demonstrating the technique and application of moves.
An effort must be made to make the content of the lessons more interesting and to show respect to students who do not understand your explanations of how to carry out moves. There? no point in getting angry as you are to blame for not explaining things clearly and correctly in the first place.
Things need to improve otherwise student union members will seek asylum in other schools. Remember if you don? look after your students then some other Sifu will.

I noticed I came in for some friendly fire from Interpreter. All I got to say to you is, that is what I was told by one of the seniors. He was standing about ten feet away when it all happened .When you reply, try not to use the word twat to get your point across.
In answer to the question about the flat fook sau, it is still being taught by Sifu Kan at the school. Some student union members at other schools have mentioned they are being taught a higher version of it. Which one is correct,any of you experts out there know?
In addition some student union members want to know why they are being taught the stance with the feet pointing inward and yet when Sifu Kan is doing chi sau his feet are parallel? He? not practising what he preaches, it? not a very good example to us.
Some student union members are so fed up with things at the school,they only want to be taught by Martin Bell. They don? want anything to do with Sifu Kan.
Any suggestions on how to achieve this without being victimised by Sifu Kan will be welcome.
Somebody impersonated me on 17/3/2003 ?Real Vk Observer,I think this was either e-warrior or Sifu Kan himself.Don? listen to a word of this rubbish.This is what was said
?or my imposters: How Sifu Kan teaches his senior students is none of you, or the junior's business. You just can't understand it if you don't know the background which is above your level. It's a mixed grade class - each different grade of student should mind their own business and concentrate on learning and practising what they have been taught. But not to nosey around. This will only slow down their improvement?

Don? follow the above advice, as this is a good way of victimising a student, conning them and finally kicking them out, without any of the other students finding out.
Sifu Kan is trying to use the ?ivide and conquer strategy?
If any student union member is being given a hard time we want to know about it and I want to know about it.

My advice to all student union members is to :-

1.Nose around and keep your ears open
2.See if you are being taught differently to other students of the same grade.If yes,are you being victimised? Have you had a run in with Sifu Kan to deserve this treatment?
3.Note how and what is being taught to seniors,as that will be you in a few years.
Practice the moves at home.Are the moves logical?
4.See if you are being charged different tuition fees compared to other students of the same grade.(ex-students have complained of this)
5.Have you been kept on the same move for far too long?Why?Is it a set up for some private lessons?
6.Are you being taught moves which don? work?(ex-students have complained of this)
7.Will you be the next rotten branch to be kicked out of the school,after all the time and money you have spent to get up to a high grade?Are you wasting your time if you are to be kicked out at a later date if you can? afford the lessons.
8.Are you starting an education which you can? finish?(ex- students have said no-one has finished the system with Sifu Kan,not even Martin Bell and he? been there 25 years.
9.The way the seniors are sparring,is it enough to get you out of trouble in the street?
Or are they just poncing around?
These are the type of questions that each and every student union member should be asking.

At last,I am glad you student union members are speaking out on this forum.It? taken some time, at least I don? have to put up with silly names like snake,dragon,e-warrior and I did see someone calling themselves neo.Very silly and predictable,even though I am waiting for Wolverine to come through.So just keep it to ?K student union?and your message,thanks.
As some student union members cannot afford the lessons, I am suggesting that they join me and some other union members so that we can have one/two lesson per month on a Saturday in the park next to the school. You will be contacted.
As long the weather holds out we should be ok. It? very common in china to practice kung fu in the local parks.
We have already had a few lessons in the park with members from other schools and they have been very interesting.
After the cutting comments from Old Timer about the school not being tested against other schools, what I am suggesting is that more student union members invite their friends from which ever other school they are attending(Kevin Chan,Austin Goh,Sam Kwok,Simon Lau etc.) and we can all train together and compare skills. They can test us and we can test them in the basic moves, chi sau and sparring etc. This will tell us which school is best at what.
Also the seniors can show us the next moves we are going to learn so that when we arrive at that move we can be familiar with it. As long as they have passed their test for that move,then they must have met Sifu Kans high standards(just joking) and are fit to teach the move. Am I correct in this assumption?
Some student union members are a bit worried that they might be victimised for attending these lessons in Lambeth park. They are suggesting we hold the lessons in Hyde Park in the summer months so as not to attract attention outside the school.
I am ok with that. It? up to you to make sure you aren? found out.
The lessons will be free with no time limits, we stop training when the sun sets or when we get tired..

One/Two Saturdays a month, if the lessons are a success then we will have it every Saturday. You can practice what you learn during the week in the park.
People think that I can? pull this off, but they said that when I started the VK Student Union. Now there is a school within a school there. Normally I work alone, but as long as only a very few people know who the real Observer is my identity will not be compromised. But I will be there in attendance.
Stage Two-Once the lessons in the Park are established I will invite Old Timer/Any seniors who have left,the Interpreters,Garfields,Spencers,Ramans etc /and anyone who has been banned etc. to attend.
We will show Old Timer how fit some of these office types are.
Stage Three- Is to ask friends from other styles of Martial Arts to attend. Then Ving Tsun can be tested against other styles in sparring.As I have read it wasn? very successful against some styles,it will be an eye opener or should I say eye closer for some of us.

I noticed there has been a lot of bickering about who is the best Master /Grand Master of ving tsun.
So what I intend to do is to start a campaign to elect the next Grand Master to succeed Yip Man as the head of the Yip Man Ving Tsun family.You cast your vote with a reason why you think they should be Grand Master.
They must have been taught by Yip Man, and be an approachable ambassador to the style.That means Victor Kan does not even come into the reckoning.
So think about it and start voting.
Next Observation Report at the end of June 2003.
Train hard as we have Old Timer to deal with.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 5/31/2003 5:29:39 PM IP: 62.30.119.113
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Myths Concerning VK and VKCVT
Author: VT Watchdog

VKStudentUnionMember:
There is no such thing as a "student union" in VKCVT school. It is just fabrication. You are just someone else who knows VT Kung Fu better than Victor Kan. Go and invent your own Ving Tsun. Write a book and make a video but stop writing nonsense in this forum.

Old Timer:
No doubt you have been "kicked out" of VK's kwoon and am now seeking revenge. Kan was well known for his excellent skill in chi sau in the Ving Tsun world in the 70s long before Spencer or garfield joined VKCVT. About Philip Bayer easily beating Garfield and Spencer - that reminds me of an old Kun Fu film "One Arm Swordsman" in the early 70's. This kind of fantasy only exists in Kung Fu movies. For the truth about the Bayer/Spencer/Garfield incident refer to author MI6 (2002/10/30) on this forum:
"More Ving Tsun conspiracy and scandal in Germany after Leung Tin and Kernspecht. This German instructor is Phillip Bayer (with one hand) ?an ex-student of WSL. The real story is actually the opposite of what you hear. Knowing Yip Man told his sons to carry on learning top quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan after his death, and after the incident with Clive Potter in GM Kan? seminar, Bayer knew what he was going to do after Wong? death.

In order to promote his own school and avoid losing face he couldn? just go directly to Sifu Kan. The only way out was to come to London to learn better quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan? ex - students Desmond Spencer and Garfield Watts who had stopped training in VKCVT school for over 10 years. Bayer saved a lot of embarrassment. They have no pride at all;

In other words he stole GM Kan? advanced Ving Tsun techniques from these two Black Judases to upgrade himself and his school in Germany in addition to telling this fantasy story of beating these two guys easily with only one hand. A perfect set up. Very clever indeed.

How could Bayer or anyone else? Ving Tsun be good by taking lessons from Wong when he visited Germany once or twice a year? Only a fool would believe that.

God save the Queen!"

Bayer of course is not dumb. He won't pay these two if they were TST, Ip Chung or Ip Ching students.

People are fed up with you complaining about VKCVT. You can never do anything correctly.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Vkstudentunionmember Date: 6/5/2003 6:23:20 PM IP: 81.6.241.152
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I think it is you, VTwatchdog that is talking out of his backside. Firstly, your probably trying to get extra credit from Kan doing this.

There's no student union? No probably not to you cause your not part of it. Plus you would tell Kan who we were.

When have any of my posts eluded that my Wing chun was better then Kan's? NEVER. I'm still there because I can learn from him. His attitude is crap. That's my issue with him.

Vtwatchdog wrote:
>God save the Queen

whats that got to do with anything?

>People are fed up with you complaining about VKCVT. You can never >do anything correctly.

Ignore us then. not do anything correctly? Boohoo, what are you on about.

Is it me or are all the Kan supporters really stupid?

Garfield, Spencer, Ramen, all could beat the crap out of Kan. Thats a non issue, Garfield and Spencer were natural born fighters.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ed Date: 6/7/2003 3:38:56 AM IP: 195.241.239.143
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Well VT Watchdog,

I do not know what you are watching, but it ain't facts.
I do know Victor Kan, Desmond Spencer and Philipp Bayer. The first time (and because of that experience the last time) I met Victor Kan, was during a seminar. I was very disappointed by his knowledge about Ving Tsun. Besides of that he wasn't willing to start some dialog or chi sau without his personal assistant (or bodyguard?) around.
The first time I met Desmond Spencer, I was happily suprised because of his humor and positive attitute. This wasn't the atmosphere I saw at Victor Kan's place.
The first time I met Philipp Bayer I was both shocked and amazed by his great skills, understanding and personality. All my ideas of real Ving Tsun, dynamics, directness came true in this person. Believe me, this man will not waiste his time on Victor kan Ving Tsun. Why don't you ask him yourself, instead of making up some gossip fairytales.
Ed
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Watchdog Date: 6/8/2003 6:02:58 PM IP: 62.30.119.16
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Finally you have shown your true intention... Trying to start a mutiny to steal students from VK's school for your own future school by following Derek Jones' steps. You talk like a nagging wifre not a martial artist. The more you talk the more it shows how shallow your VT knowledge is. To make it even worse you are trying to give advice. How GM Kan teaches and charges his students is none of your bloody business. If you don't like it, why do you stay there for so long? You are just contradicting yourself. The VK Student Union just doesn't exist. Anyone is welcome to be taught by Martin Bell. His school is in Hammersmith Emerald Centre by the tube station. Ring 07 905 120 155.

Students graduate after grade 7. They can manage more than just self defence. There is not much point for them to stay in the school after 7th grade unless they want a higher education in classical VKVT.

Now you are even trying to stir up things in the Wing Chun World. By the way, you talk like a future Wing Chun Grandmaster already. To remind you again. GM V. Kan is truly "the best" and "king of chi-sao" they's why you still go there. Hope to hear more nonsense from you soon Dick Head.

Please visit VK's website: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Pasco david Sifu Date: 6/10/2003 3:40:24 PM IP: 202.85.83.37
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Please eWarrior you have this below incorrect regarding me.If I told you this or someone told you this regarding learning WC with Master Wong.This is wrong, Please remove your statement about me.
Thanks Pasco david Sifu.

'After he left VK, Pasco apparently visited Wong to finish the system. He asked how much money and how much time he would need. Wong's answer? "How much time and how much money have you got?" So don't keep telling me Sifu Kan is a grasping bean counter and Wong and other sifus were/are a paragon of virtue. Everyone thinks about money. It's called Capitalism. The big C is the reason guys like you mistake methodical, traditional teaching (which takes time) with a scam. In fact, it's people like you who keep on about ?oney making exercises?who are really concerned about the dough.'

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Arthur Scargill Date: 6/11/2003 5:03:00 PM IP: 62.30.119.121
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Vkstudentunionmember wrote: "Is it me or are all the Kan supporters really stupid?"

No it's you, pal. This childish student union doesn't exist, does it? What's it ever achieved? Zippo, thats what. Such a union could only ever operate in a vacuum anyway and again achieve diddly squat. What I do know is that most of Kan's students are just laughing themselves paralytic in the changing room at VK Observer and his little band of rebels. Part of this is due to the fact that Observer isn't training at the school these days. His posts contain sod all and what they do say is totally out of step with what's going on in the kwoon.

If you think Spencer, Garfield etc. can beat the living daylights out of Kan, go and learn from them instead. Actually, they'll treat you the same if you start trying to set up student unions and schools within schools.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: JerryLewis Date: 6/13/2003 9:21:16 PM IP: 217.1.182.210
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but one question: i know about the fact that one or two of his long time and best studends (Desmond Spencer and Michael Street) changed to a Wong Shun Leung Studend, named Phillip Bayer.
They said that Phillip Bayer has just one hand... how can this be?
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Pasco david Sifu Date: 6/15/2003 1:07:28 AM IP: 210.177.193.28
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To e-warrior please remove what you have stated about me regarding Master Wong Sheung Leung, it is wrong.

Pasco david Sifu
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vk studentunion Current VK Student Date: 6/15/2003 6:38:07 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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Look e-warrior you have gone too far now.Everyone at the school knows you and your buddy are puppets and part time muppets.
The way you are going on about the two seniors who were beaten up by Sifu Bayer,makes everyone believe that it did really did happen.Your stupid theory would not be believed by a five year old.Do you think we are all dickheads.
I am worried that you are upsetting some very heavy duty guys.
We don't want them to come down to the school to discuss this matter.
Anyway if anyone comes looking for e-warrior,I will point him out to anyone who wants to know.His name is Brian and he's a short old guy.
This will hopefully show us juniors if the Victor Kan Vingtsun works or not in a combat situation.
I was pleased with what I saw at Kamon,Kevin Chans school.They had this black guy,I think his name was Steve.He had only been training for three years but his kung fu was crisp and sharp.His chisao was so smooth and fluid.It's certainly worth a look before we start doing this rolling.


Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: tommy Date: 6/17/2003 9:15:11 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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You do know that if Kan's students went to take a look at a class run by Kevin Chan none of them would ever go back. It is the truth. He is better. His students are better.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: vk student union Date: 6/18/2003 2:18:42 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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So there is no VK Student Union.Are you telling us or asking us you muppets?

Let's see how many students turn up for the lessons on Saturdays in the following few weeks.

We will all be in the park,enjoying the fresh air,also it's free.

By the way VT Watchdog is also Brain and sometimes that coward and loser Lomax.
In fact I am told that last input by VT Watchdog was Lomax.
What a pair of puppets.
Also I am told they get discounts on their fees for their lessons for all the hard work they are doing on this forum.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: The Truth Hurts Date: 6/19/2003 3:52:36 AM IP: 213.122.57.126
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VK Observer,VK student union member are the names used by a very strange,sad little fat man called Matthew who got to Dan Chi level in Classical Ving Tsun.He used to turn up to lessons on his own very scruffily dresed and had a very strange way about him,in short a loner.Without fail every time he emerged from the locker room he would be dresed in even stranger garments consisting of one black sock and one white sports sock rolled up to his knee!As you can imagine he soon became the subject of quite a lot of strange glances and a few smirks even barely suppresed giggles! he seemed to develop a fixation on Victor Kan and David Lomax gazing(some would say longingly!) at Lomax as he trained.He was very unpopular because of his aloof manner.He failed his 4th grade test many times and left the school in frustration and spends much of his time posting on this forum talking bollox about a student union and also illuminating his cretinous state of mind.SO there you have it the reason this has become such a huge thred is all down to one strange little man(if that is the right term)I appeal to all of you not to allow him to waste any more of your time(oh and Matthew you have made a certain young man very angry who has access to all your personal details...
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: James Date: 6/19/2003 6:22:57 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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You guys are a bloody joke. Inhouse fighting, trying to scare people by saying you have their personal details (which should be confidential to your Sifu). Funny, funny, funny. Here's the truth, Kan is an old man. His Wing Chun days, as an exponent and a teacher are passed (teaching stills gone because he now has a bad memory).
He keeps students because they cling to the fact he was a student of Ip Man.
Wake up people. There is some very good WingChun in London and the surrounding areas.

Instead just about every other group in the UK has more students and produces people with better chi sau and fighting skills.

Why do you think that is?
Ask yourself this. How long have you trained? Then go to another school and watch those who have trained for the same period. Once your eyes have been opened, go and see Kan, respectfully explain the situation and then join an organisation that will help you progress! It is a crying shame such people hand over their money and five years later still cannot chi sau or fight.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: The Terrible Truth Date: 6/22/2003 8:35:48 PM IP: 62.30.174.81
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You have got Sifu Kan as a fake master and now you have found a fake VK Observer.
Matthew is NOT VK Observer.Try to find a real master and then you might get lucky with finding the real VK Observer.
Your powers of deduction are abmysmal.
Matthew you should thank your lucky stars you have been kicked out of that school.Go and enroll with Kevin Chan,Sam Kwok or Simon Lau if you want to learn real Ving Tsun.The standards are a lot higher at those schools and the quality of the teaching and the quality of the students are also greater.In addition you will be taught the full system.
What are you guys talking when you say you graduate at Sifu Kans when you get to 7th Grade.
End of 7th Grade at Sifu Kans is the end of Chum Kiu.
That means you expect students to be happy at graduating AS YOU PUT IT and NOT learning these less important parts or should I say the other half of the system(where the rip off really and truly starts):-
1.Bill Gee
2.Dummy
3.Butterfly Knives
4.Pole Form.

IS THIS WHAT YOU CALL GRADUATING.NOT LEARNING HALF THE SYSTEM.

If Sifu Kan only knows the system up to Chum Kiu,then admit it.
Your students and the rest of the Ving Tsun community will respect you for that.Instead you are trying to pull this farce

As far as the whole Ving Tsun WORLD is concerned :

NO-ONE HAS GRADUATED FROM vICTOR kANS SCHOOL WITH FULL HONOURS.
I also believe no-one ever will.

Any student hoping to learn the whole system at Victor Kans will be disappointed,like many hundreds before them.
I suggest you try else where.
Good luck Matthew your kung fu education will start for real now.You had a lucky escape and saved youself a lot of money and heartache.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: JerryLewis Date: 6/23/2003 5:52:42 AM IP: 80.143.53.219
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i? italian and i met Wong Shun Leung and Philip Bayer in Italy twice, later Phillip Bayer again with Desmond and Michael in London. Believe me, Phillip Bayer have the gratest Skill i ever saw. Des and Michael Street invited Phillip to London but first they went to Germany. And please ask Desmond or Michael and learn the facts. Visit also WongShunLeung.com and see Desmond? training session at the bag in Phillip? school.

Jerry
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: 8 Grade Date: 6/27/2003 7:11:43 PM IP: 82.43.60.22
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James -
GM Kan is not a young man. He is 60 years old and full of experience like a good sifu should be. He is strong like a bull and has a memory like an elephant. He does all kinds of demanding sports like skiing, tennis and horse riding. He remembers every students moves and standard. No doubt he has got a good 20 years left to teach. Many clever students with basic knowledge of WC go to VKCVT not just because he is the only student of Ip Man teaching in Europe but also the best one in Chi Sau Ip Man ever produced.

I can assure you that there are no other WC instructors in London or in the world that can teach classical chi-sao better than GM Victor Kan. The others are "for your eyes only", not the real thing. Any sifu would do the same as GM Kan - kick the piece of shit like you out of their organisation.

Visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: nothing but the truth Date: 7/6/2003 9:27:28 PM IP: 82.43.60.97
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I am a 10th grade student at VKCVT. I have just completed the butterfly knife form in Feb this year. It is really a deadly weapon from the old days. I might someday learn the Long Pole which has not much practical value at all like the knives in this hi tech world.

Sifu Kan is right. In the VKCVT system students graduate from 7th grade after the Chum Kil form. It is more than enough for bare hands self defence. This is the original purpose of learning VT Kung Fu. One can go further to learn the Dummy and Bill Jil for higher VT education. Or to complete the system with learning the butterfly knives and pole if they wish to. My personal opinion is why bother to learn these 17th century weapons.
Kevin Chan, Samuel Kwok and Simon Lau were the students of Lee Sing in the early 70?. Lee Sing learnt WC from Lok Yiu in Hong Kong for only one year before coming to the UK in the early sixties. He was well known for his bad Kung Fu the WC world. They found it out later on. Then Sam Kwok changed to Yip Chun (another big mistake) and Simon Lau falsely claimed to be a student of Yip Man to cover up. So what is the point of learning a false complete system from a fake master. It is a terrible mistke if one wants to learn real VT from them. VKCVT charges 24 pounds for 3 lessons. Expensive! Intelligent one goes to VKCVT.



Want to find out how well GM Kan knows Ving Tsun Kung Fu?
Please visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Ex- Vk student Date: 7/7/2003 12:10:43 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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When are the lies going to stop.This is what I think,Victor Kan has been exposed at last.


Many of the things you have described about Simon Lau have happened and are still happening at Victor Kans.
Mr.Kan is another who has manipulated the hunger of kung fu students in the UK to paint this image of a knowledgeable master. By blowing his own trumpet louder and louder he has got himself a reputation among the more gullible students out there.
You say you wasted 4 years at Laus, well there are people at Mr.Kans who have wasted well over 10 years. Many of the seniors who have realised what? going on have left.
Mr.Kan started teaching in the early part of the 1970?.I have read an extract from the ?yths Concerning VK and VKCVT?where it has been mentioned that Kan had waited till Ip Man had passed away, before starting to teach. . This is because Ip Man would have never allowed someone to teach until they had finished the system and gained some basic understanding of the art of fighting.
Kan used to intimidate people and still does. Even though by looking on this forum, some of his students have started to make comments just like you have .The worms have started to turn.
But the majority of students who are intimidated will never become fighters, they are easily manipulated, taken advantage of types with no direction in life.
Mr.Kan has been getting away with these tricks for 30 years. In that time he has wasted the students time and money.
I suggest you try Kevin Chan, Sam Kwok, Wong Shun Leung or even that Shaolin monk in North London.You can? get any more authentic than that.
Good luck, a lot of you kids out their need it
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Mark Date: 7/7/2003 4:16:44 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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Exactly right. Has anyone from Kan's actually been to see Samual Kwok or Kevin Chan. Mr Chan often gives demonstrations - take a look and post here to let us know what you think.
I attended one of his demonstrations and it was clear the man has great skills, good Wing Chun and some high quality students.

Mark William Smithson
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: INTWERPRETER Date: 7/10/2003 3:51:51 AM IP: 62.30.174.81
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I can? believe this is still going on!
Which one of Kans students still believes it when Kan tells them he is the king of chi sau and is untouchable ?
Do you believe it e-warrior?slomax?Vt watchpoodle?vk Admirer?Martin?10th Grade?
Come on?which one of you twats believes this ?
Or are all of you agreeing with him so you can have a quiet life, when in your heart of hearts you know he can be hit?
Oh by the way to all you twats out there,I?e been told by a vk student union member that this thing about a 10th Grade learning the Knives is all made up.
This story was made up so that Kans school would not end up being a laughing stock of Ving tsun schools in the uk and the world after that twat ?errible Truth ?put down the real truth of what? going down at that school in Lambeth.
So don? believe a word of this 10th Grade rubbish,it? a load of bull.
Elephant Kan did not even learn the knives,so how could he teach it to this 10th Grade ?
It? not right Kan saying his school will teach you the whole system when in fact they only teach properly up to the second form and the rest is just a load of mish mash Kan has got from magazines and videos.
It? not right at all,it? downright dishonest.
Sorry to go on, but you twats have been going on about these senior students who were beaten up by Sifu Phillip Bayer.
Well we all got an unsatisfactory answer for what really happened there from
Kan and Brian.
But you twats missed something more interesting while you were chasing up these crumbs about what Sifu Phillip Bayer done to Kans seniors.

What you missed was written on 1.2.2003 on this thread by ?A.Student?this is what it said :

?'ve been doing wing chun for over 17 years and over the years i've tested it in various situations against other wing chun stylists and other styles. For years i've heard Victor kan and his students talk about their level of sticky hand s amd they are the best and every other wing chun is chop suey wing chun. Well I know for a fact that when Wong Shun Leung was in England one year, his student Anthony Kan defeated him in a sticky hands challenge. This has also been verified by former Kan students as well as wong Shun Leungs students.
Also i Know Victor has said things about William Cheung in magazines, but in a Fighters magazine issue he claimed that Cheung was the super streetfighter. So why the hypocrisy?
A.Student must be a student from the 1980?.Come on down ?.Student?- give us the full story on how the king was beaten up.Any of Kans former students who were there ,can you please tell us what moves finished VK off. Old Timer if you are still out there ,come on down,we need the whole story .

So is it true that Anthony Kan DEFEATED the ?ing Of Chi Sau?Victor Kan?

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing-bar-tin-har Date: 7/10/2003 8:13:25 PM IP: 195.92.67.74
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Dear ex VK student,

Just in case you don't know, Kevin Chan is a BBJ grappler and wong shuen leung died over 4-years ago. Dead man can't teach you ving tsun.

Wing-bar-tin-har
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Mark Date: 7/15/2003 3:55:33 PM IP: 217.204.93.212
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Close but no cigar!

Kevin Chan teaches Wing Chun and also studies BJJ. It sez so on his site. Can't you read?
LOL
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 7/17/2003 6:31:58 PM IP: 217.33.195.161
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Does this thread end when it hits 300?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: 8th grade Date: 7/21/2003 6:14:35 PM IP: 82.43.56.180
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GM V Kan respects his master and has principles. He is the genuine student of Yip Man and the best one teaching in uk and europe.Yip Man allowed any of his students to teach. That is why WC flourished so fast in a few years time in HK in the 60s.

A good fighter is a born fighter (e.g. Mike Tyson). Most real fights just involve a couple of rowdy roughnecks. No high level technique is needed. VKCVT chi sau is a passion and love and hobby for life. Like tennis or golf. one benefit is good health and the best bare hands defence for life.
Visit www.vingtsunvk.com

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Student Union Observer Date: 7/27/2003 5:02:04 PM IP: 82.43.60.50
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vk student union on 2003/6/18 wrote:

"So there is no VK Student Union.Are you telling us or asking us you muppets?

Let's see how many students turn up for the lessons on Saturdays in the following few weeks.

We will all be in the park,enjoying the fresh air,also it's free."

Since that post was put up, attendance at VKCVT on saturday has been pretty steady. There's never been anyone training in the park near by, at least not on that day.

These burks in the so called "student union" (who are all VK Observer by the way) are talking out of there back ends. Which is not surprising since that's where their kung fu originates from. Needless to say, even if there were student union members, they wouldn't have the balls to train round the corner from the school.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: UN Peacekeeper Date: 11/12/2003 3:47:56 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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Mod insider where are these Weapons of mass destruction???
Has Tony Blair been lying?
He's ruined this country.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Robert Date: 11/17/2003 11:17:59 PM IP: 62.190.57.65
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For God's sake!

VK is a teaching bad Wing Chun. When will you sad sods realise it.

Pathetic!!!!

:-(
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 1/27/2004 3:25:59 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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Where is VK Observer?
Where are his Observation reports?
They used to give me a chuckle but when you are there it's not a laughing matter.
I demand to see the VK Observation reports for the last few months .
Have the forum admin put a block on these valuable reports.
They shed light on what is going on at that school so that students new to Ving Tsun are not fooled.

Please update ASAP.You have a duty to tell the truth as it happens.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Doctor Know Date: 2/18/2004 6:58:39 PM IP: 82.43.57.198
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I'll give you one guess about VK Observer, loser. What gives me a chuckle is that you ain't realised the reason for him stopping is cos the guy isn't at the school anymore. If he ever was. What's even funnier is you're giving Kan the oxygen of publicity and you don't even realise it. Oh yes, burks like you and VKO on this forum Please, let's have some more.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Student Union Observer Date: 2/18/2004 7:08:07 PM IP: 82.43.57.198
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And where's the marvellous student union? Since my last "Observation report" haven't heard a single pipsqueek out of any of them. And of course, the Union was actually going somewhere.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: servent Date: 2/19/2004 4:00:53 AM IP: 213.40.131.66
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the mark of amaster is one who has lots of schools and a great reputation ,you seem to be stuggling maybe you should get a grant from the national lottery as well as some bad actors,but keep playing fu and hope no one tries to kick your but for real.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: clone Date: 2/20/2004 11:11:00 PM IP: 213.40.131.66
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i think you are vko and your back tracking so gmvk can teach you some special moves thats why you have stopped writing all this rubbish as for your club it might as well teach hockey who is top student if you have any e-muppet and your troll leader be careful dont get caught up in the lineage saga it doesnt work in the real world only in your bed rooms fu fairy fighters
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: clone Date: 2/22/2004 12:14:22 AM IP: 213.40.131.66
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their are no myths you buy your belts and so on as so you are vko read clone magget brain and you will learn it does not pay to hide the truth because every one knows because the senseable ones leaveand the thickies stay their probably not gone move until the euro devalues but all the best iam in training for my next bout i hope i get a ving/wing/ving/sun/tsun/chun fighter i hope all the best see you in march fu fighters keep playing fu dont be scared to reply listen you wont get hurt even from an email.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 2/25/2004 3:41:27 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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You guys are jumping the gun.
Is Elvis really dead? No the king is still alive and ready to rock and roll !!

I am still training at Victor Kans.
I am making observations continuously and noting comments fromVictor Kan and his seniors about past students of the school and general discontentment among the students about the quality of the teaching they are receiving and the cost.
Also after a lot of encouragement from Student Union members I am taking a keen interest in the politics of Ving Tsun and the differences of the systems which are being taught by students of GM Yip Man.
In doing so I noted the verbal abuse by Victor Kan of several kung fu masters in the UK and Hong Kong past and present about their low levels of skill.
A good example is that attack on WSL, Desmond Spencer and Phillip Bayer by VT Historian( who is really by the way Brian or Martin) 24.2.04 (Refer to the topic ?hillip Bayer?).
Or another example is the shameful attack on GM Lok Yue.This was made in the context of who is Grandmaster of Ving Tsun.
I observed Victor Kan saying to his seniors?He is half dead !Is Lok Yue still alive?? This was then proceeded by all the seniors laughing and giggling amongst themselves like a bunch of girls.
Gm Ip Chun and Master Leung Ting are abused nearly at every lesson.
Victor Kan sometimes walks around with a picture of Master Leung Ting holding both wrists of an opponents and doing a front kick to the face of the opponent.He ridicules this particular move regularly.

Every student at the school has read the complaints about what VK is teaching by Desmond Spencer and Terry on Phillip Bayers forum.
This is what it said for the rest of the Ving Tsun Community in the world out there:

1) This article is to clarify incorrect information concerning myself and Philipp Bayer on another VTAA Forum.

My involvement in the study of Ving Tsun, started in 1976 with Victor Kan with whom I stayed until 1989. During this time I also taught for his association for a period of 5 years at one of his London branches. Due to family commitments I put a hold to my Ving Tsun studies. This period gave me a chance to take stock of what I had learnt so far - finding many questions that had not been answered hence having to research via magazine articles and numerous books to acquire the missing information.
2)
Naturally after investing 13 years in learning this particular system I had not completed the entire system and there was a strong possibility that completion would take a further 13 year!

My understanding of Ving Tsun was that it was a very simple and straight forward system with a short training syllabus in comparison with other Chinese Kung Fu Systems. Faced with this fact I decided to discontinue with this way of learning.

It was by chance that Phillipp Bayer and I came into contact, following a meeting with Phillipp and actually training with him it became apparent that the system I had learnt was not as effective as the "Wongs" way. I was immediately impressed not only be the obvious straight forward "no secret" teaching methods but, also the logic and scientific principals behind how the system was originally meant to be taught, beaming with enthusiasm I immediately relinquished all practices and association with my previous Ving Tsun training and started afresh. Since meeting Sifu Philipp Bayer and becoming a student, he has proved to be not only an excellent teacher but also a friend. Phillip gives his time, knowledge and expertise in the Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun Kung Fu System. Phillip was able to lecture and discuss the principles of Ving Tsun, he only had combat proficiency in mind, stripping away all the mystique, nonsense and bullshit that normally tends to be associated with other interpretations of this system.

I consider my real training and real understanding of Ving Tsun began in 1997 under Sifu Philipp Bayer, since studying with Philipp I became aware of my limited understanding and knowledge - so I have set about changing my thinking, attitude and practice within the system.

Sifu Bayer's teaching style and approach (thinking) to Ving Tsun suits me just fine! " just like a perfect glove" he has given me a much greater insight into the "true beauty" of Ving Tsun more than any other person in my 20 or more years involvement in Ving Tsun. Today I continue to train and teach under the VTKFAE under Sifu Philipp Bayer.

In conclusion, I wish to express my gratitude to my Sifu Philipp Bayer and a big thanks to my Senior Kung Fu brothers who helped me a great with my training in Germany ( Daniel Engelberger, Mustafa, Ed Blom, Han Brens, Gert-Jan Ketelaar, Lutz Komp, Ole, Peter Zeller and Michael).

Desmond Spencer
London

2) Hi Desmond, see you 2mor!

Im sure if you look on sites with these anonymous 'warriors' you will hear of me and read things of total rubbish. I am only 20, im young and have fire burning so strongly in my heart so surely i will react to these words? Well actually no... like Desmond i don't want to react, why should i? Is it fair to say such harsh things about a child who they watched grow from 13 in the class, surely not? Yet i don't care. This is their game, we all have an aspect of Peter Pan in us, it's what makes you smile when you do something silly! This banter is just a game, it is what makes them smile but i don't like this game so why should i play? I have always been intelligent and i have never been a sheep. I chose to restart all over again after five days a week for nearly five years because i was clever and free enough to see that what i thought was superior was nothing comapred to what i could gain where i am now.

Information is so freely available now and someone who wants to see the truth can find it much easier than i could then. So when these people look at these other sites and see these 'un-named' people who claim to hide nothing, (except a name. Hey whats that!) do you think an independant person will take any notice? I sure all of us here just laugh at this, even me and my name will be there! I know people will look and say 'hey, this isn't fantasy this is reality. I must run to here...' yeah. To class them simply, they are fools. So why do we need to waste our effort on them? Once a fool, always a fool even if you give them everything you have! Just think, that's one less person to get in the way of your training.

Banter will always go on, and bullshit will always be written. We know the truth and the people being slandered know the truth. In conclusion i leave you with the thought, is this banter affecting you? Is it creating a barrier to your path? Has it stopped the path of the people who are spoke of? All it does is reassure the thoughts we previously had. A man is a man is a man, and he will always have opinions, yet some just don't have have any sense!! ha ha


Terry
London

As you can imagine every student is a bit concerned when a guy leaves after 13 years study and another after 5 years of study.
So I tried to find out a little more.about each of these individuals from the seniors.

Well no one knew much about Desmond Spencer as it was a bit before their time.

But as far as this guy Terry was concerned,there was a a lot to be said by the seniors about this chap. Especially by Brian.
Well everyone was saying Terry was going to be the first person ever to finish the system with Victor Kan .He was doing five lessons a week and private lessons for five years and got up to red sash.
That was very good going,but then he left.
When a Student Union member asked Martin he said ?he? gone to college and could not attend the school anymore?
This is obviously some lie as you can see from the comments above by Terry that he has found something superior.

Please could you tell for each and every student training at Victor Kans, for their peace of mind and so that they know they are not about to waste as much time as poor Desmond and Terry exactly why they left ?
1) Most Student Union Members do 2 lessons a week, not 5 a week ,are we wasting our time? With no chance of finishing?
2) What is this missing information that Desmond is going on about?
3) Will it take ANOTHER 13 years to finish the system?(That is 26 years in total,is that right?)
4) Will Martin finish the system next year ? (his 26th Year of continuous study).Hooray!! No hip hip Hoooraay!!

And finally by popular demand the Observation Report.
Thank you for your support Old timer.
In addition I hope I have not disappointed VK Student Union Observer and Doctor Know.

I have been posting them but the Forum Administraitor on this site has not been printing them.
I have had no problems on some of the other Wing Chun sites.All they require is a password which can be obtained very easily from any ex-student of these various schools.Or if you are really eager just join the school for a few weeks get the password and go.

Observation Report to 31st July 2003 to 23rd February 2004.

Many students are still getting a rough deal, with an outburst here and there. There not learning anything, just getting shouted at.
Things have to be improved and made clearer if the school is to compete with the likes of Kevin Chans or Desmond Spencers schools for the quality of the teaching.

Make a note, that Matthew is NOT VK Observer, you victimised and kicked out the wrong person.
Please reinstate him to the school with FREE membership for two years and FREE lessons for 1 year.
In addition a dinner date with Mr.Lomax if Matthew wishes as part of the compensation package.

Don? come on here trying to scare members of the VK student union by saying:

?eedless to say, even if there were student union members, they wouldn't have the balls to train round the corner from the school?

Sure some of them are gutless but we don? want any trouble. We have trained in that park, you can? stop us. If you?e looking for trouble you found it.
We have also trained in Holland Park, where we met several other Martial artists that we sparred with. We?e trained in Green Park, Regents Park, Hyde Park and Richmond Park to name but a few. We?e not breaking any laws plus it? a nice day out.

After training with students from other schools and sparring with them, the Victor Kan students came off worst. The students from the other schools knew more moves and student union members had no answer to the attacks. There was no defence for leg attacks from the Vk student union members. They were just frozen. The VK students need to be taught more moves, leg defences and more footwork.

Even in the Chi Sau the VK students did not fare that much better. They did not have the variety of attacks and defence that these guys had. The students from Kevin Chans School were exceptionally good. They did not wrestle and conserved energy, which they used for attacks when an opening appeared, which they did with blinding speed.
The good news is that we have a Victor Kan black sash join the VK student union.
Hopefully he can impart some of his knowledge to the rest of us.

I have started attending lessons at Kevin Chans and I urge all VK student union members to do the same. It won? hurt to attend both schools if you can afford it and have the time.
We do not want to put all our eggs in one basket as Desmond and Terry sadly did, for well over five years and the vast amount of time and money expended.
I am sure Victor Kan has something useful to offer as far as Ving Tsun goes,even though I don? know what it is (yes! That? a compliment) as has Kevin Chan etc.

And finally don? bother going to lessons on Saturdays in Lambeth as the attendance is so poor that there are not enough students for people to train with.Several students have mentioned this to me.
Students have to queue to train with seniors. So don? pay all that cash just to stand around.
Instead join the VK student union today. Train for free in the park with VK seniors who have passed their tests at grade 2,3,4,5,6,7, and even 8.

Next Observation report at the end of 31st March 2004 if the Forum Administrator prints it.



Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bong South Date: 2/25/2004 5:12:46 AM IP: 80.43.96.150
Reply to this message
Yes!

Well done my Kung Fu brothers and sisters... We're nearly there.

Lets get this thread up to 300 before April, shall we?

Bong.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Iron Fist Ho Date: 3/2/2004 4:30:38 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
Reply to this message
Why are everyone on this forum fighting.We all belong to the same family of Ving Tsun.
You people should concentrate on learning kung fu not arguing on computers.This not very productive.
First find reputable master,then train very hard , every day for rest of your life then your kung fu will be good.
Happy New Year.











































































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I wrote this and put on forum a few months ago but they not print it. Kanwahchit has maybe paid big bribes so they do not print the real truth about him.
Luckily some other ving tsun forums have.
Here I go again.

I am the one who wrote in July 02 that Victor Kan only started to teach once Yip Man had passed away.
It is the truth, Victor Kan (Kanwahchit) is a fake.

Kanwahchit is talking to much about his millions and how good his kung fu really is.
I will tell you the whole truth as I have some time as business is bad at the restaurant because of SARS and chicken flu.

As I said BEFORE:-
They only called Kan the "Untouchable" because he was the rich kid
and when we trained with him we were not allowed to hit him.
It? bad for business.It? better for us to massage these rich idiots egos,so they keep coming and paying more and more.Capitalism was alive and well even in the 1950?.
This particular rich idiot was lazy and was not the right kind of material to be a kung fu man..

Anyway he was wealthy and we were lowley restaurant workers.
Otherwise we would have split his lip when we trained blocks with him.
I see he has not changed much,very forgetful as ever.He could not remember the names of his seniors,this made him very popular.
Also he had trouble remembering moves and trick moves.
Is he still forgetful?

We tell him he was knig of chi sau and the idiot use to believe us .As long as he bought the drinks we did not care.
In every kwoon in the world there is always an vulnerable idiot who is trying to fit in and they end up sweeping up the kwoon after the lesson as well as teaching beginners the basics while the real fighting men get on with serious training.
The more time Kanwahchit spent with these beginners the more his kung fu got worse.They provide no competition or good technique to sharpen your own skills.
The only time he train with intermediate students was when he held kick bag for them.
Students above intermediate were not interested in kicking,all they want to do is third form and dummy,then apply these techniques while doing chi sau with other students who no dummy and third form so they no how to block these advanced attacks.
So I cannot understand why he say he chi sau with everyone at school.
It? not true,and like anyone you or me we do not want to waste our time with someone who only know basics of chi sau. As time is short in lesson.

As I try to explain Idiots like Kanwahchit are very easy to find in every kwoon.They make good caretaker for kwoon.

The film ?rodigal Son ?is a film about Kanwahchit.
Except that he never really learned the real Ving Tsun.
Very few people learnt the real Ving Tsun or even understood the most basic concepts.
Yip Man only show real Ving Tsun to five or six people and these people already very good at kung fu of other styles with solid foundation in basics of gung fu and fighting.
I knew Kanwahchit would be no good at kung fu when I first saw him,his head was to big,he could be hit from most angels.
Kanwahchits kung fu was no good and Yip Man lost interest in teaching him.
Also he was to young,with no background in kung fu of any type.Ask yourself ?How does your master treat 12 yearold students,does he discuss the finer points of kung fu with these youngsters?
He knows these youngsters are just learning to do chi sau with what? in their trousers.
Kanwahchits kung fu was so bad none of the other schools wanted him. He really live up to his name of Untouchable.

In the end Kanwahchit was taught by one of Leung Sheung?s students,young Cheung.
This makes Kanwahchit 11th Generation student.

If you don? believe me look at Prof.Zhongs pictures:-Thank you Prof.Zhong.

Goto:-
?ww.bawcsa.org/ Under>Bio's>Leung Sheung .Third photo down(Group of 30 people)Double click on photo to Enlarge.
Middle Row/Second from the Right>Mr.Victor Kan.
Plus for general interest>same picture>Front Row/Second from the Left >Mr.Leung Ting.
This class has produced not one but two self proclaimed Grandmasters?

I see Kanwahchit is still using the same defence he used in the old days.
Even now after all these years.
I must say his defence was very good in the old days.
You wide eyed idiots want to know what it is?
Well Kanwahchit when in trouble would shout out at the top of his voice

?on? pick on me I am a friend of Wong Shun Leung?

It worked every time.The thugs would run away.
You idiots talk of Mike Tyson.Well you see how many idiots walk behind Mike Tyson after fight.Well in the same way Kanwahchit was such an idiot .Wong did the fighting and these hangers on did the talking.

Now this story about Yip Man telling his sons to learn Ving Tsun from Kanwahchit is true.
Yip Man only told his sons to do this because he loved them and knew their kung fu was not good as his.
Everyone knew that Kanwahchits kung fu was rubbish , so Yip Man knew that if his sons learnt kung fu from Kanwahchit then no one would bother to challenge either of his sons and try to make reputation for themselves.
Yip Man was very clever man, he could not even walk to shops without some young idiot challenging him.
His two sons did not take their fathers advice as they had pride and learnt from real seniors.
What did Kans millions buy him?
Please visit:www.vingtsunvk.com

You will see a picture of Kanwahchit sitting in the middle,with the real masters of Ving Tsun.
You will see how he bought himself a place in the the Ving Tsun Athletic Association.
With Kanwahchits millions he bought as you in the west would say a franchise in Ving Tsun history.
A good but dishonest investment. I cannot reveal the figure as I am sworn to secrecy.
Also he was very rude and put arms around GM Lok Yiu.
Go see for yourself, verify this with your own eyes.

Why GM Wong Shun Leung speak highly of Kanwahchit?
This is because Kanwahchit lend money to GM Wong Shun Leung in hard times.Pay for grocery and kung fu lessons. I will thank Kanwahchit for this as he helped GM Wong Shun Leung stay in VingTsun.
No one can say I am not a fair man.
So Gm Wong always felt he owed something to the rich idiot.
Gm Wong had heart big as Hong Kong, me I would have taken Kanwahchits money and kicked him up the backside.
Kanwahchit the rich idiot tried to fit into somewhere he did not belong. He never had to use his kung fu like we did to beat up rude customers at the restaurant or unwanted suppliers of vegetables at the restaurant.

Every one in Hong Kong know Kanwahchits ving tsun is rubbish.

They call it ?ictor ?RASH?Kan SYSTEM OF KUNG FU? What he teaches is TRASH and what he talks is TRASH.

HE IS THE TRASH KAN MASTER.

REJECTED BY THE BEST and now trying to make out he? the best.
Do not believe any of these fairytales Kanwahchit (Victor Kan) tells you, he is only after your money.
We took a lot of money off the idiot,that? why he is always so bitter.

Yours humblee,
Restaurant Worker.













I wrote this and put on forum a few months ago but they not print it. Kanwahchit has maybe paid big bribes so they do not print the real truth about him.
Luckily some other ving tsun forums have.
Here I go again.

I am the one who wrote in July 02 that Victor Kan only started to teach once Yip Man had passed away.
It is the truth, Victor Kan (Kanwahchit) is a fake.

Kanwahchit is talking to much about his millions and how good his kung fu really is.
I will tell you the whole truth as I have some time as business is bad at the restaurant because of SARS and chicken flu.

As I said BEFORE:-
They only called Kan the "Untouchable" because he was the rich kid
and when we trained with him we were not allowed to hit him.
It? bad for business.It? better for us to massage these rich idiots egos,so they keep coming and paying more and more.Capitalism was alive and well even in the 1950?.
This particular rich idiot was lazy and was not the right kind of material to be a kung fu man..

Anyway he was wealthy and we were lowley restaurant workers.
Otherwise we would have split his lip when we trained blocks with him.
I see he has not changed much,very forgetful as ever.He could not remember the names of his seniors,this made him very popular.
Also he had trouble remembering moves and trick moves.
Is he still forgetful?

We tell him he was knig of chi sau and the idiot use to believe us .As long as he bought the drinks we did not care.
In every kwoon in the world there is always an vulnerable idiot who is trying to fit in and they end up sweeping up the kwoon after the lesson as well as teaching beginners the basics while the real fighting men get on with serious training.
The more time Kanwahchit spent with these beginners the more his kung fu got worse.They provide no competition or good technique to sharpen your own skills.
The only time he train with intermediate students was when he held kick bag for them.
Students above intermediate were not interested in kicking,all they want to do is third form and dummy,then apply these techniques while doing chi sau with other students who no dummy and third form so they no how to block these advanced attacks.
So I cannot understand why he say he chi sau with everyone at school.
It? not true,and like anyone you or me we do not want to waste our time with someone who only know basics of chi sau. As time is short in lesson.

As I try to explain Idiots like Kanwahchit are very easy to find in every kwoon.They make good caretaker for kwoon.

The film ?rodigal Son ?is a film about Kanwahchit.
Except that he never really learned the real Ving Tsun.
Very few people learnt the real Ving Tsun or even understood the most basic concepts.
Yip Man only show real Ving Tsun to five or six people and these people already very good at kung fu of other styles with solid foundation in basics of gung fu and fighting.
I knew Kanwahchit would be no good at kung fu when I first saw him,his head was to big,he could be hit from most angels.
Kanwahchits kung fu was no good and Yip Man lost interest in teaching him.
Also he was to young,with no background in kung fu of any type.Ask yourself ?How does your master treat 12 yearold students,does he discuss the finer points of kung fu with these youngsters?
He knows these youngsters are just learning to do chi sau with what? in their trousers.
Kanwahchits kung fu was so bad none of the other schools wanted him. He really live up to his name of Untouchable.

In the end Kanwahchit was taught by one of Leung Sheung?s students,young Cheung.
This makes Kanwahchit 11th Generation student.

If you don? believe me look at Prof.Zhongs pictures:-Thank you Prof.Zhong.

Goto:-
?ww.bawcsa.org/ Under>Bio's>Leung Sheung .Third photo down(Group of 30 people)Double click on photo to Enlarge.
Middle Row/Second from the Right>Mr.Victor Kan.
Plus for general interest>same picture>Front Row/Second from the Left >Mr.Leung Ting.
This class has produced not one but two self proclaimed Grandmasters?

I see Kanwahchit is still using the same defence he used in the old days.
Even now after all these years.
I must say his defence was very good in the old days.
You wide eyed idiots want to know what it is?
Well Kanwahchit when in trouble would shout out at the top of his voice

?on? pick on me I am a friend of Wong Shun Leung?

It worked every time.The thugs would run away.
You idiots talk of Mike Tyson.Well you see how many idiots walk behind Mike Tyson after fight.Well in the same way Kanwahchit was such an idiot .Wong did the fighting and these hangers on did the talking.

Now this story about Yip Man telling his sons to learn Ving Tsun from Kanwahchit is true.
Yip Man only told his sons to do this because he loved them and knew their kung fu was not good as his.
Everyone knew that Kanwahchits kung fu was rubbish , so Yip Man knew that if his sons learnt kung fu from Kanwahchit then no one would bother to challenge either of his sons and try to make reputation for themselves.
Yip Man was very clever man, he could not even walk to shops without some young idiot challenging him.
His two sons did not take their fathers advice as they had pride and learnt from real seniors.
What did Kans millions buy him?
Please visit:www.vingtsunvk.com

You will see a picture of Kanwahchit sitting in the middle,with the real masters of Ving Tsun.
You will see how he bought himself a place in the the Ving Tsun Athletic Association.
With Kanwahchits millions he bought as you in the west would say a franchise in Ving Tsun history.
A good but dishonest investment. I cannot reveal the figure as I am sworn to secrecy.
Also he was very rude and put arms around GM Lok Yiu.
Go see for yourself, verify this with your own eyes.

Why GM Wong Shun Leung speak highly of Kanwahchit?
This is because Kanwahchit lend money to GM Wong Shun Leung in hard times.Pay for grocery and kung fu lessons. I will thank Kanwahchit for this as he helped GM Wong Shun Leung stay in VingTsun.
No one can say I am not a fair man.
So Gm Wong always felt he owed something to the rich idiot.
Gm Wong had heart big as Hong Kong, me I would have taken Kanwahchits money and kicked him up the backside.
Kanwahchit the rich idiot tried to fit into somewhere he did not belong. He never had to use his kung fu like we did to beat up rude customers at the restaurant or unwanted suppliers of vegetables at the restaurant.

Every one in Hong Kong know Kanwahchits ving tsun is rubbish.

They call it ?ictor ?RASH?Kan SYSTEM OF KUNG FU? What he teaches is TRASH and what he talks is TRASH.

HE IS THE TRASH KAN MASTER.

REJECTED BY THE BEST and now trying to make out he? the best.
Do not believe any of these fairytales Kanwahchit (Victor Kan) tells you, he is only after your money.
We took a lot of money off the idiot,that? why he is always so bitter.

Yours humblee,
Restaurant Worker.













Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Observer Date: 3/9/2004 6:24:21 PM IP: 82.43.57.198
Reply to this message
VK Observer: you keep on bad mouthing VK. But why are you still training in his school? It makes no sense at all. It is likely you are an expelled student who is trying to stir things up and seek revenge.

As a matter of fact in the WC Wrold Yip Chun is well known for his low level of skill in the art. LT Pretended to be Yip Man's student. He never practices what he preaches. VK teaches gnuine VT but very unwavering in a traditional Chinese way. He is famous for his Chi Sau training. Two of his talented 8 grade students (5 years) and Fitzgerald even created their own styles bases on VKCVT. Non one can finish any system of Kung Fu or any other kind of professional training if they don't have the time and money, regardless how many years involved. Spencer and Kevin might charge less. But one learns cheaper modified WIng Chun.

Many people in the Wing Chun world read the conspiracy article below in this forum by MI6 2002/10/30:

Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: MI6 Date: 2002/10/30 ?? 05:01:20

More Ving Tsun conspiracy and scandal in Germany after Leung Tin and Kernspecht. This German instructor is Phillip Bayer (with one hand) ?an ex-student of WSL. The real story is actually the opposite of what you hear. Knowing Yip Man told his sons to carry on learning top quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan after his death, and after the incident with Clive Potter in GM Kan? seminar, Bayer knew what he was going to do after Wong? death.

In order to promote his own school and avoid losing face he couldn? just go directly to Sifu Kan. The only way out was to come to London to learn better quality Ving Tsun from Sifu Kan? ex - students Desmond Spencer and Garfield Watts who had stopped training in VKCVT school for over 10 years. Bayer saved a lot of embarrassment. These two POOR old guys were willing to sell their asses and betray their own parentage for a few dollars. They have no pride at all; Bayer paid them to keep their mouths shut. They became his running dogs. He brought them to Germany to bark for him.

In other words he stole GM Kan? advanced Ving Tsun techniques from these two Black Judases to upgrade himself and his school in Germany in addition to telling this fantasy story of beating these two guys easily with only one hand. A perfect set up. Very clever indeed.

How could Bayer or anyone else? Ving Tsun be good by taking lessons from Wong when he visited Germany once or twice a year? Only a fool would believe that.

God save the Queen!

- Spencer joined VKCVT school in his early teens in 1978 and left in 1982 having reached grade 7 (under 5 years) not 13 as he lied. See VKCVT school group photo taken in 1981 (www.vingtsunvk.com in the picture gallery). He was appointed to teach in one of VKCVT schools in 1981. That school was closed within 8 months (not 5 years as he again lied). Because most of his students failed the grading test by GM V Kan. He left VKCVT in 1982 after being defeated by Derek Jones in 1981. See www.vingtsunvk.com - picture gallery.

Anyone with common sense know that Spencer is under Bayer's payroll by the way by how he glorify and worship him in Bayer's forum.

- Terry joined VKCVT when he was 12 years old. Unfortunately this pervert John Raman bothered and upset him a lot. Sifu Kan had to expell Raman from the school but he continued tow wait outside the school for Terry and sent him obscene letters which upset the young boy even more. Eventually the police were involved. Then Terry's father stopped him going to the school. Shame that this dumb boy don't even appreciate how Sifu Kan and Martin had helped him.

What is all this utter nonsence about VK student union members training in the park for free and VK students coming off worst? Blah, blah blah. If it's true why do you still pay Victor kan to train in his school. You're just contradicting yourself.

Meanwhile you promote Kevin Chan who was a student of Lee Sing. The latter learnt VT only for 1 year from Lok Yil in Hong Kong before he came to the UK in the early 60's. Well! Kevin Chan may be pretty good on his "Wing Chun roundhouse kicks".
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing Chun Student Date: 3/11/2004 10:39:17 PM IP: 155.198.17.121
Reply to this message
Kevin Chan who was a student of Lee Sing
- No he wasn't.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: clone Date: 3/12/2004 5:23:33 AM IP: 213.40.131.66
Reply to this message
terry left the school because what he was learning did not work in the class with fellow students and not the rubbish your sifu or his helper want make up to lie to the public their kung fu is as bad as their tales.more trash kung fu more trash sheep ie no progress in school only in the wallet just do it.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 3/13/2004 3:43:13 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
Reply to this message
That about right, it sums up Kans Ving Tsun system in three choicewords.

Trash Kan System.

Anyway out of interest Iron fist ho(restaurant worker), how much did Kan pay to buy himself in to the VTAA lineage?
I want to know if he? recovered his money from poor sods like me over all these years he? been teaching?

Martin sorry to see your party piece has been finally rumbled,the one you give new students when they start ??ow Yip Man on his death bed in his last dying breath asked his sons to learn ving tsun from Kan as his kung fu was so good? Most of the gullible students lapped it all up thinking it was gospel.
When the real reason being :-
Refer to Iron fist ho 2.3.2004

?ow this story about Yip Man telling his sons to learn Ving Tsun from Kanwahchit is true.
Yip Man only told his sons to do this because he loved them and knew their kung fu was not good as his.
Everyone knew that Kanwahchits kung fu was rubbish , so Yip Man knew that if his sons learnt kung fu from Kanwahchit then no one would bother to challenge either of his sons and try to make reputation for themselves.
Yip Man was very clever man, he could not even walk to shops without some young idiot challenging him.
His two sons did not take their fathers advice as they had pride and learnt from real seniors?

This really made me chuckle.I know several Vk seniors who really believed Kans story.

Very amusing Vk observer.You don? mess around do you,straight for the jugular.
You gave me a good chuckle,the best ever so far keep it up.Can? wait for the next instalment.

All true however,how he rubbishes other instructors and makes out he? the best.
But still no one has finished the system with Kan.Most leave in utter disgust when they realise they are?t learning anything worthwhile.
This 200 plus post bitching session proves this

As I said before Kan plays with peoples heads and this is the result.
So theres no point complaining about vk observer as Kan has created him,he is entirely to blame for this mess.His minions are?t helping either.
I hope this is enough publicity for you Doctor Know,even though it? the wrong kind.
Vk student union observer it seems the pipsqueeks are sparring with other schools and and getting beaten .
Finally before any of Kans supporters have a go at me,I would like to say
Don? you dare pick on me I am a friend of Wong Sheung Leung !!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: excpstudent Date: 3/13/2004 8:39:59 PM IP: 62.252.64.10
Reply to this message
I used to train with clive potter for a few years. In my opinion he is the best teacher in UK. I find it very hard to believe that Mike Street beat him because after he met clive he was having private lessons with him. I know because he had one straight after mine once. Why would he travel out of London and pay someone who he beat to train him? Whatever you may think of Clive you cannot flaw his skill or teaching.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VT Observer Date: 3/17/2004 6:05:41 PM IP: 82.43.57.71
Reply to this message
Restaurant Worker - Years ago a VT master in his seminar in London told us the story of a restaurant worker who, due to his own lack of ability, received 2 broken ribs from Victor Kan's double palm during chi sao (by accident). He could not go to work for weeks then lost his job blaming Sifu Kan. You must be that guy, now barking like a mad dog. You're just making up silly stories to seek revenge.

VK couldn't help being born rich. He paid Yip Man handsomely to learn the best Ving Tsun. This, combined with his love of sports, excellent physical ability and intelligence, he became Yip's best student. That's how you guys nick named him the "King of Chi-Sao".

You said that VK's VT is no good. But...
- why have none of his Kung Fu Brothers criticised him once in the past 30 years?
- why did Yip Man tell his own sons to carry on learning VT with VK after his death? (Money means
nothing to him after his death).
- why did WSL say openly to a Chinese KF magazine 28 years ago that VK Ving Tsun Kung Fu was
very good? He reminded everyone that VK did not give him a penny for saying that.
- why did William Cheung in Australia tell his own brother to practice Chi Sau only with VK if
he wanted to become really good at VT?
- how come 3 of VK's 7th grade students can beat 12 bullies in 5 minutes resulting in 4 ending
up under the table, to help the waiters in a restaurant in London's China Town 18 years ago?
- how come one of his students won the Chi Sau competition organised by another WC organisation
16 years ago?

Please, please, please don't insult the dead. Wong never borrowed any money from VK. He had enough students to support him to have a good life until his death.

* That guy in the 'Prodigal Son' learnt the best KF from his sifu. Then he beat the best KF fighter in China to revenge his sifu. Not like those who betray their sifus for a few dollars more.

* The only photo of VK taken with Leung Sheung was at Yip Man's funeral. No others. Why don't you go challgenge Victor Kan in Chi Sau again. Surely its a good way to go, to die at the hand of a "living legend" rather than from SARS.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: clone Date: 3/17/2004 7:25:11 PM IP: 213.40.131.66
Reply to this message
alright son shine take a chill pill and you will begin to imagine your a kung fu master its all right your master is the same your only following the sheep in to the promise land once you get all your belts you will teach trash can gung fu but just pray you dont have to try that crap out for real because it doesnt work martin all ways feeds students with crap and thats why aka j romaan kicked his has his kung fu didnt work and neither does cans ,can had the cops on stand by in case j romaan came in to take on the entire school he would have kicked all of them into touch including can .
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Doctor Know Date: 3/18/2004 2:46:33 AM IP: 82.43.57.71
Reply to this message
VK Observer:
Your observations are tiresome fabrications that don't resemble the facts at all. In case you didn't know, VK hates Leung Ting, so he's hardly likely to have a photo of him. However, the biggest myth is this:
"I am still training at Victor Kans."

You're not. If so prove it by answering this simple starter for ten: VK has changed the system recently - by that I mean he has moved some things around from grade to grade, not altered the actual techniques themselves. So what are they? If you don't answer then I'm right and you're not training at the school. But if you get anything at all, I'll be impressed.

As for VK students getting their butts whipped by other schools prove that too. Arrange a meeting where I can see this with my own eyes. You'll bleat about having your identity revealed and being kicked out of the school but you don't have to turn up yourself. Just arrange it and give me the time and place.

BTW to correct you on another matter, Mathew wasn't kicked out of the school. He left to go abroad.

Can't wait for your reply. I'll give you about a week.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: 9 grade student Date: 3/19/2004 8:02:55 PM IP: 82.43.57.71
Reply to this message
9 grade student
Most of the 7th grade students became very friendly with Sifu Kan. They expected to pay lower fees but to get to higher standard. If one wants to go to university, they ask two things:

1 Qualifications
2 Your financial situation

You will not be accepted if you don't meet one of the above. Just like VKCVT system. Victor Kan only cares for his school's high standard. He is not a sweet talking person. He tells you direct and corrects mistakes straight away. That suits me perfectly. I go there to learn the best Wing Chun money can buy not to listen to a lot of gossip. After the school I'm the king of my own profeesion once again. Guys like old timer think they know Wing Chun very well by reading some Wing Chun comic book and start critising others. They are nothing but a bunch of wankers. Don't want to train hard or pay but expect results the same. It's more fun and free to wank themselves at home. Only Iron Fist Ho has got any sense by saying:

"Why are everyone on this forum fighting.We all belong to the same family of Ving Tsun. You people should concentrate on learning kung fu not arguing on computers. This not very productive."

Nowadays, every Wing Chun sweet talking instructor claim they are better and others by adding some fancy moves, ground fighting, and round house kicks etc. onto their already modified Wing Chun. That is mixed up Wing Chun for mixed up guys.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: The Truth Date: 3/22/2004 12:23:48 AM IP: 81.136.203.2
Reply to this message
The truth is that Victor has become too worried about his pension in his old age. I have heard that he keeps putting up the prices of his classes lately. Also, it is well known that Vicor never learnt that weapons at all in any depth - just knows how to pose with the weapons. He know what he was taught by no means was it the full system - his syllabus lacks many of the moves taught by William Chaeng and Yip Chun. The Victor Kan method also lacks any practical application at all. His system lacks any real footwork as well. The late great Derek JOnes was dismissive of Victors actual skill once he learnt advanced skills from Willian Cheung - and no he didnt leave because he wanted to be a founder - he left because he discovered that Victor simply did not know many advanced techniques at all and so he learnt more from William Cheung. Check this site out - especially the family tree - shows that Victor did not learn proper footwork from Yip Man.

http://www.wingchunuk.co.uk/pages/wingchun/frank_mark.html

Is there anybody out there who learnt from Victor who has learnt the weapons at all since the 1970's? No - because Victor doesnt know the system. it really is all over the place. His arrogance is just too amazing for words - - just uses his students for money and to do things for him for free!! His lack of humbleness really does take your breath away - Yip Man would have been ashamed of the way he treats his students if he were around.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: clone Date: 3/22/2004 4:03:24 AM IP: 213.40.131.66
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doctor no way the reason that vk has changed things around is due to the fact that the standard of kung fu in the school is so low that you can pass all grades on the net ,this is due to every one susing out trash can fu so it is natutraul for the standard to be adjusted so as to pass hows that for a starter for one.has cans assistant completed the dummy or is that students learn that earlierin their course see ya wouldnt waana be u.
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Well Hung Date: 3/24/2004 6:45:48 PM IP: 82.168.64.42
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What happened to Kevin Gledhill?
Pictures has been removed from the site of VK. I understood that Gledhill was the nummero uno instructor at VK's.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Restaurant Worker (Iron Fist Ho) Date: 3/25/2004 3:43:44 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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You misunderstand me,I just show you example of the deceptive hands of Wing Chun.

It is GOOD for Wing Chun people and schools to fight amongst themselves everywhere ,even on this forum.This will make their kung fu better and you can see what masters kung fu works and what masters does not.Who can teach properly and who can?.

Then fake masters like Victor Kan can? fool stupid students.
The stupid students at Victor Kans think they are learning real Ving Tsun but as they have no competition with other schools they will never know how effective it is.
This is exactly what fake masters like Victor Kan wish for,so they can make good living by teaching rubbish and telling tall tales and in addition get free respect from students for doing nothing.
This is why the last thing fake masters want is a competition,if their students get beaten up they are out of job.
But I already read here his students are no good and are getting beaten,they must be dumb to stay or scared to get into real fight.
Some fake masters are experts at creating a safe atmosphere at school so students are never really tested or even break sweat.They just do drills and non competitive chi sau.
This type of school appeals very much to scared students who just like to talk but never want to see and feel the full horrors of real fight.
Also 9th grade student think I am fool. he? only saying all these things because he has a lot to loose if people discover his master is a fake .It mean his qualification is fake and he waste a lot of time and money

Let me give you a real lesson in the deceptive hands of Wing Chun :-

One hand goes out soft and appears friendly and the other conceals a knife.
My father always used to say stab in the face and in the genitals as most people thoughts are in these places throughout the day.This is good punishment for someone who makes you angry.
When they see mirror or go to toilet during the day it will remind them of their mistake.

The people who run forum had been bribed by Kanwahchit,so they not print my letter.
But I put letter further down the page and the rest is history Vt Historian.
The whole world knows the real truth about Victor Kan (Kanwahchit)
Vt Historian you should read the real history of Kanwahchit before you talk so loudly.

What utter rubbish about broken ribs,the closest Kanwahchit has come to broken ribs are the ones that are served to him at a restaurant.This is another fairytale of his.

Also don? talk of these tall tales like a tough guy when it comes to restaurant workers, otherwise you will not be able to eat at any restaurant in Hong Kong the next time you visit,because talk like that will upset many Restaurant Workers,you making them lose their jobs.Ha you idiot,you will be loosing some teeth,there will be a queue of them waiting to fight you.
And don? joke about SARS as it is no laughing matter for people and restaurant workers in Hong Kong.

Yours humblee,
Restaurant Worker
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: BongSauBen Date: 3/28/2004 5:35:50 AM IP: 62.254.0.16
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Wow can you imagine what would happen if ALL that studied Wing Chun began to learn from one another we could start to look forward instead of looking to the past. If there is anyone out there that would like to exchange ideas and talk about wing chun please contact me.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Doctor Know Date: 3/28/2004 7:00:59 PM IP: 82.43.61.178
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VK Observer - time's up. It's now 2004/3/28. I posted my questions on 2004/3/18. That's more than a week - it's ten days. I'm still waiting for the answers. VK Observer IS NOT training at VK's kwoon. And all that about Kan's students being beaten up by guys from other schools - that's false too. Which means Restaurant worker doesn't know what he's talking about either.

I now know that the people slagging VK off on this thread are just out and out liars who are out to get Sifu Kan irrespective. They're doing it because they're the ones with the chop suey Kung Fu. Heck, half of them can't even spell. They also know nothing about the martial arts. That's why they spend so much time attacking Wing Chun masters like Kan instead of actually praciticing the art.

So VK Observer. Lost yer tongue or something? Forgotten how to type? Or just plain scared cos you can't prove a thing? You don't know what's going on, do you? Can't wait for the next "observation report" for a good laugh.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Bad boy bubba Date: 3/29/2004 3:08:37 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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None of Victor Kans students from the old days believed any of his stories.

Name the ones who believed this rubbish about Yip Man asking his sons to learn VT from Victor Kan as it was so good?
Name them you MF?
Do you think we are all stupid and born yesterday?

I am sure 99 per cent of his new students don? believe any of his stories either!

I wrote this nearly 2 year ago, 31.10.02 to be exact.


?TF?


As for the stroy of Yip Man telling his sons to learn off Victor Kan, what a load of crap. Why would he send his sons to learn from someone much younger than they were, that would be a bit embarrassing for them wouldnt you think. ?


You got to be a total imbecile to believe that crap,and a total MF loozer who? looking for someone to hero worship.
The real reason is more like the one Iron Fist Ho is throwing around,because Kans kung fu is rubbish.

These are just kung fu anecdotes from an old kung fool.
They have to be taken with a pinch of salt and you have to bite your belt so you don? laugh.
Students play along to play the game,so they can pass their tests,even though Martin has been playing the game far too long.

Somebody should make an effort to publicise the fact that he is a fake.Try to go national and then international.Any journalists out there or reporters who can run with this story.There must be some public interest in it somewhere because he is conning people with a fake CV.Then to top it off all his old and new students who are being or been ripped off should sue him.
At least more people are clued up now then in the old days.Plus lots of students have left his school for other schools.They can still sue him.
Even his wife left him,the main reason being - because he was teaching fake ving tsun to their only son.Plus he was not sweet talking her.I bet he wished he practiced sweet talking to his students!You live and learn.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Old Timer Date: 3/30/2004 2:04:21 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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The story of 3 7th Grades beating 12 bullies is a fabrication or should I say a downrite lie.
Everything was not all it seemed to be.
I am ashamed to say I was one of the 12 bullies and a junior at the time, the whole thing was set up by Victor Kan.
Victor Kan told us exactly what to do,to the last detail,you know what he? like.
We started the trouble and the 7th Grades finished us off.
This was done to impress the Chinese community in the west end and to get new students to enroll.
So it was only done to enchance Victor Kans reputation as a competent kung fu master.

Pasco got arrested for his trouble but once I dropped the charges for assault he was let off.
So ignore this BS about the schools fighting prowess.

The chi sau competition winner was none other than our own Pasco David,who Kan has been rubbishing for the last few years.
Kan is so two faced,when you are no use to him or you won? pay the 200 pound for an 8th Grade private lesson you get banned and your qualifications are said to be worth nothing.
Plus you get photos of you getting beaten up,(which were choreographed for a magazine article) put on the internet as if it were a real interaction of a session of chi sau.
This is the type of guy he is.

Also he HAS boasted in a seminar and at a restaurant over a meal that he gave money to GM WSL several times. I have heard this with my own ears and Martin has also repeated it to me several times over the years I was there.
Iron fist po might be telling the truth.

Bad boy you want me to name a person who believed Kans stories,Martin for one and that greek guy Seki.He really got sucked in and he had so many private lessons on the dummy that Kan bought a yacht with the money.
I hope this makes things a little clearer.

Doctor Know can I correct you?
People know too much about martial arts now,that? why they spend so much time attacking fake masters like Victor Kan.
They can? be fooled so easily or perhaps they can.I know I certainly won? be.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Yeu cija Date: 3/30/2004 7:56:29 PM IP: 195.92.67.208
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Vicktor Kan he gamble to much he loose all time so studants hav to pay him more. hes wc is no good footweok bad not much to teach students so he has to take his time teacing students. I payed him
much money yet I did not learn anythin good. I would say avoid him he would only gamble your moneys away.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: bob Date: 4/12/2004 6:56:07 AM IP: 62.195.71.134
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I train in Holland. There are over 30 schools, set up according to Wang Kiu [one of Yip Man's core 4 students] and under his strict guidance. The level of skil is high, there is a lot of sparring so techniques can be tried and tested and adapted to the students needs. Wang Kiu gives seminars quite often, when he was still alive even together with Wong Shun Leung. They are both nice and easy to approach people with a very practical attitude towards WC. All the forms are being trained, including the dummy and the weapons, the live dummy and the stick-against-butterfly knives form. You start dummy training very soon, even after a year, because many moves are easy to practise with a dummy and you can also train your hands and arms in a way you cannot do with a human partner. I feel that's realistic training and that is what WC is about, right ? Wing Chun has no secrets and everyone who tells you different is lying. It is easy to learn and to understand. To get true reflexes though, takes years of practise. A good fighter doesn't think anymore but acts in a reflex when that's needed..

I have never heard of VK btw, but that doesn't mean anything.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: 108 Students Date: 4/18/2004 9:54:38 PM IP: 82.43.57.69
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We are the 108 loyal students of GM V. Kan in London. We are not fools nor are we stupid. Everything Sifu Kan has told us is the thruth. We have double checked and verified it from reliable sources from Hong Kong. We are very happy with the very reasonable fees and very much like the way GM Kan teaches. The straight forward way.

We are very proud of him. We are also very lucky to learn genuine VT Kung Fu from a genuine Grandmaster, particularly doing the classical Chi Sau with him personally. That explains everything. We also have 100% confidence in him.

We shall not be moved, no matter how hard you guys try to put him down by turning the truth the other way around and making up stories and lies. We just feel very sorry for you all that you cannot afford to learn VKCVT anymore.

VKCVT is the real thing. That's our advice to all new comers, that's all we can say.

Goodbye and good luck.

Please visit the VKCVT web site and judge for your selves.

www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: FORUM ADMINISTRATOR Date: 4/24/2004 3:05:06 AM IP: 82.35.122.223
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There are a large number of replies to this post but they are being rejected by the system as the post is so large.
If you are having trouble posting to this subject it is because it has got very big.
So in order to get through with your reply:-

PLEASE REPLY TO THE FIRST MAIL BY E-WARRIOR ON 30/6/02.

THIS WILL PREVENT IT FROM BEING REJECTED AS IT WILL NOT HAVE TO SEARCH THE WHOLE SUBJECT AND TIE UP TO THE RELEVANT LINKS.

The further it is from the FIRST POST,the more chance it will be rejected.
In your reply give reference to the mail you are replying to and the date.

Sorry for this fault.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: expert Date: 4/28/2004 2:28:22 AM IP: 213.40.131.66
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confused you will be this system of your sifu is nonsense all the good students have left only the defence less are left being lead in to the ,how many of these students can fight ,none ,fact sifus assistant baeten up by a no body just like sifu close freind in australia so its true system is rubbish wont work.all 108 students are kung fu cut outs,when sifu Can does like some one he says i cant teach you so student leaves ,naff master please rely do not aviod or buy pass this your style lacks credabilaty sorry english not very good.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: wc-student Date: 5/17/2004 3:11:48 AM IP: 81.135.133.205
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Kan Sifu like all sifus stresses the importance of the basics. The only problem is that unless you have several centuries to spare, a lot of money and already come blessed with the attribute of being a "good student" (ie you're naturally skilled) you wont learn anything other than the basics from him.

The teaching style might be traditional but unfortunately that doesnt mean it is very effective: no class structure, no safeguard to some students receiving more instruction, no frame of reference given for what is taught, people held up on some moves pointlessly (when they could also be learning and practicing other skills), and constant and inconsistent changes to prices. No transparency in general with Kan sifu shrouding everything from basic skills to price changes in an air of mystery.

Unfortunatley as an ignorant Westerner I prefer to learn in different environment, where at the very least I know how much i am paying from month to month and that the people who i am learning from are genuinely willing to pass on their knowlegde in a straightforward manner.

Some of the newer students also end up taking themselves far too seriously far too quickly, which is bad and might result in them getting a kicking when they realise how basic their basics actually are.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VKVT Student Date: 5/21/2004 7:26:54 PM IP: 82.43.60.218
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WC Student... you, an ignorant Westerner, prefer to pay less. Learn a lot of imitation WC from any old Tom Dick or Harry who knows nothing much about WC. We, the clever Westerners, prefer to pay a little more "fixed fee 72 for eight lessons" to learn real VT from a genuine VT master. We know that all good martial arts training "any styles" is 80% based on the basic training, the hardest part. Everyone has their own preference. It is even cheaper and quicker for you to learn many fancy moves from a cheap Kung Fu movie. Really! You are a very ignorant person insulting our Westerner's intelligence.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: wc-student Date: 5/26/2004 4:03:26 AM IP: 81.131.195.18
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I hope for your sake that your right and you don? find you?e been spending a lot of money and have learnt or understand very little. I agree it is about the basics: I don? agree that you have to learn in an ineffective linear format dressed up in mystique before you can grasp them. But as you say it? personal and what do I know, Im ignorant: good luck with your super duper pure ving tsun. When you touch hands with someone who has been studying imitation wing chun in ten years Im sure their impure hands will just crumble.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: VK Observer Date: 7/13/2004 2:59:18 AM IP: 82.45.239.73
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VK Observation Report to 10.7.04

Doctor Know (Brian, Martin or Trash Kan) who the hell do you think you are telling me I?e got a week to reply.
I am the President of the VK Student Union; I do what I want, when I want, to whom I want.
Got That.
You do not give me time constraints; you should pay me more respect as I am helping to improve the kung fu at our school.
By organizing the VK Student Union and running a school within a school (Free of Charge) things are slowly improving.
With a large number of VK Student Union members training at other schools (Kevin Chan, Desmond Spencer etc), the better techniques and clearer explanations they are getting (especially from Kevin Chan) are starting to filter through at the school in Lambeth.
You only have to look around when your back is turned to see that students are using more efficient techniques with complimentary footwork and correct body positioning etc.
They are experimenting with what works and not just standing about like dummies and moving like robots.
As these more efficient techniques filter through, the kung fu at our school will improve and less of our students will be getting beaten up in sparring with other schools.

This improvement may I remind will be no thanks to Victor Kan but he can still take the credit.
I am easy with that. Everyone knows who? running this school.
Give me one more year and we will have a school to be proud of with students who can put up a real fight against anyone.
This is something which Victor Kan has not been able to achieve in 25 years of teaching!

So don? order me about in future, I had a good mind to keep you waiting for 6 months before I gave the next VK Observation Report.
But as teaching standards have started to deteriorate here it is.

Observation Report:-

Please don? think that just because the Observation report does not come out on the day it is intended is some victory over me and the VK Student Union and a signal for you to abuse students and walk away from students without an answer when they have asked a legitimate question regarding a particular move. We are not prepared to return to the bad old days.

The VK Student Union has been instrumental in the changes to the syllabus and I have been the main driving force in these enforced changes.

But there is still a lot, lot more to do, as the first four belts which cover on average 1-2 years is still very boring for beginners.
Several student union members have commented on this and some have left for good. Saying the teaching is far too slow and some Student Union members have said this is a way to extract more money from them.

The Student Union demands the following changes in addition to the ones already made for beginners:-
1. To be allowed to practice hand techniques on the Wooden Dummy.

2. To have some type of contact training with other students from the start of the 1st grade. (Pak Sau / Blocks etc)

3. A full explanation of all the combat applications for the first form SLT/SNT.When to use them and when not to use them.
I only ask this as I asked several grey and red sashes(with an average 3-5 years plus training what the moves meant and every single one said they were not sure as they were never shown, but some did show what they thought they were for. This is clearly not acceptable as many other schools show these applications from the onset of their training.

4. Some foot work drills, introduce it in the 1st Grade, as most students are anxious that they have to stand like a dummy to show how strong their stance is.
I am aware a strong stance is important but in a fight you do not stay still. If you stand there in a strong stance as you have shown for the first 9 months, then you will absorb the full impact of an opponents strike.

5. To force the senior students to come and train basic moves with beginners.
At the moment most of the seniors spend most of the lesson doing chi sau and only chi sau.
It would be helpful to beginners to practice with the seniors as their techniques have matured and would help our learning curve. Some seniors who belong to the Student Union do train with the juniors but more seniors would be welcome.

Those five demands will do for now as far as training is concerned.

In addition the Student Union demand to see some early pictures of Victor Kan put on his web site for all to see and verify,between the ages of early teens to early twenties.

We only ask this because of the pictures of a student in GM Leung Sheungs class (please Refer to Professor Zongs photos) who we all believe to be Victor Kan.

Even Brian said he thought it was Victor Kan.

Could the biggest myth on this forum be that Victor Kan learnt VT with GM Yip Man?
Could it be a fact that Victor Kan was with GM Yip Man for few weeks?

Even at our school, how many times have I seen people come to the school for a few weeks and leave? Or others who come and are ignored or don? train very hard and think it is some social club or extension of the pub.
Do they go around saying they trained with Victor Kan? And do people on hearing this assume they train or had trained with Victor Kan at the highest level?
There is a lower level as well.

If the photos are similar it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Victor Kan did not learn the VT system with GM Yip Man.
It proves in fact that he learnt the VT system with a student of GM Leung Sheung.

The student union are not too worried if this finding is true but just reduce your prices by 5 pounds per lesson accordingly and teach quicker.
We all know when people are wasting time for their own gain.

Students are not willing to pay over the going rate to learn from NON Yip Man lineage Masters unless they can throw in something useful and workable like grappling etc.
Thanks.

Next on the agenda are lessons on Saturdays.

As summer has finally arrived ALL lessons on Saturdays will carry on as normal at Park Number 3 as listed on your last e-mail. I will tell you well in advance if we are to have a change of location.
Remember the rule: - a maximum of three or we are pushing our luck.

After the success of the Saturday lessons in the park there has been a big demand for a permanent midweek lesson in the park.
The main argument of many of the students being:-

?hy should they, being clever westerners pay so much just to do the basics? Paying so much for so little. All these basic of basics can be done in the park?

This is their argument but I have to warn you no mirrors in the park.

I think that post by VKVT Student (who is by the way Brian, Martin or Trash Kan) on this thread 21/5/04 upset very many students. They are paying hard earned cash and spending valuable time in the evenings which they could otherwise spend with their family and friends just to learn the basics. On top of that to keep it interesting gets abused by Trash Kan.This was a real kick in the teeth for even loyal VK students.

So I would like to announce that the THURSDAY LESSONS AT THE LAMBETH SCHOOL ARE CANCELLED UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
Thursday lessons will be held in Park Number 5.Starts at 6.30pm sharp.
To all VK Student Union members the Rota will apply for Thursday lessons at the Lambeth school.
If too few students are there you entitled to forego your Rota duties and attend the lesson in the park.

The THURSDAY lessons at the LAMBETH school will probably resume in mid- October 2004. I will keep you notified.

Doctor Know (Brian, Martin or Trash Kan) you will have to take my word for it as far as Victor Kan students getting their butts whipped by other schools in our sparring sessions in the park.
I have seen it with my own eyes.
All the Victor Kan Students have been taught incorrectly for far too long and far too slowly.
It? a shame as some of them are very eager to fight. They haven? been given the quality training which they have paid for to get the job done.
As somebody had said on this forum before comparing VT to words and sentences, they have been shown many words only but none have been shown how to put a sentence together.
This is a sad state of affairs after 3 ?4+ years of training.
Doctor Know if you still adamant and want to witness this with your own eyes please ask and I will arrange it so that you can witness Victor Kan students being beaten in chi sau and in sparring by students from other VT schools and in sparring by other styles of Martial Arts.

Doctor Know if you are serious I will arrange it.But once these things are started they can? be stopped.
People from these other schools take their teaching and training very seriously. You have been warned
I will also be in attendance.No problem about that.

Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: PhilS Date: 7/13/2004 4:08:30 PM IP: 84.65.64.253
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Hi there just thought I would spare some thoughts on your post.

Below are quotes from your post, its surprising to think that this
was written by a Victor Kan student, its enough to put anyone of the
old gambling fool.

"Give me one more year and we will have a school to be proud of with students who can put up a real fight against anyone.
This is something which Victor Kan has not been able to achieve in 25 years of teaching! "

So old VK is a bad teacher.

"But there is still a lot, lot more to do, as the first four belts which cover on average 1-2 years is still very boring for beginners.
Several student union members have commented on this and some have left for good. Saying the teaching is far too slow and some Student Union members have said this is a way to extract more money from them."

Teaching is far too slow.


"If you stand there in a strong stance as you have shown for the first 9 months, then you will absorb the full impact of an opponents strike."

No understanding of basic turns which most schools teach within couple of months!

"Could the biggest myth on this forum be that Victor Kan learnt VT with GM Yip Man? Could it be a fact that Victor Kan was with GM Yip Man for few weeks?"
"Even at our school, how many times have I seen people come to the school for a few weeks and leave? "
"It proves in fact that he learnt the VT system with a student of GM Leung Sheung.
The student union are not too worried if this finding is true but just reduce your prices by 5 pounds per lesson accordingly and teach quicker. We all know when people are wasting time for their own gain."

And to top it of you and other VK students now doubt your 'masters' history/knowledge.

"Students are not willing to pay over the going rate to learn from NON Yip Man lineage Masters unless they can throw in something useful and workable like grappling etc.
Thanks."

You lot are A bunch of worthless sheep! You know yourself what you are learning is rubbish, over priced and dubious, yet you still want
to learn from this con man ?

"The student union are not too worried if this finding is true but just reduce your prices by 5 pounds per lesson accordingly and teach quicker. We all know when people are wasting time for their own gain."

Do you really know when people are wasting your time? smell the coffee dude.
Listen up ,its blatently obvious to you and the rest of kans students that he is teaching rubbish and ripping you all off (gambling aint cheap!) ,yet you dumb mf'ers are still willing to study with him? I can understand why some people are so hung up on
lineage they really want to learn the old fashioned way, but if you really want to learn to fight go to a decent teacher of modified wing chun ie it can cope with various attacking styles like grappling,groundwork etc.

Ask yourself this even if Kan was a student of Yip man so what ?
how many thousand's of students did he have, do you think they were all good because their teacher was? And if you know yourself his
wing chun is no good then stop wasting your life and go find a decent wc/wt teacher regurdless of who taught them. Noone's going to ask you your lineage before punching your head in !.

cu, Phil.S
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing Chun Student Date: 7/15/2004 3:37:48 AM IP: 81.6.229.101
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VK Observer et al., I am wondering why did you bother setting up a student union for VK's school? Its not like he's the only Wing Chun Sifu in London, there are plenty of good teachers, many from the Lee Shing lineage. Unless you're only interested in titles and want to skip a generation...

As a kung fu student, you should respect your sifu and not form a union against him. Its not university you know! If you are having problems with him, either speak to him yourself or just leave. I'm sure if all those who were unhappy with his teaching just left, then he should get the message. Its his school, HIS business, if you don't like it go somewhere else.

I can understand that many of you have paid so much already and gained so little, let that be a hard lesson for all of you in this situation. Learn from your mistakes and cut your losses and find somewhere else to learn, if you just stay and complain you only have yourselves to blame.

BTW, how much are lessons? And whats the student to teacher ratio?

Also, those students who you say are eager to fight, in what context? Streetfighting or just sparring? If its the former, I wouldn't blame VK for witholding info from them.

Most people go to VK because they've heard of him as the only direct Yip Man student still teaching in England. Also, this propoganda about him being 'the king of chi sau' and 'the true sucessor to Yip Man' in the back of any Combat magazine is what attracts the vast majority of them - I wanted to learn from him too, I was even going to visit the school... but I found somewhere else to learn. I'm thankful that I didn't bother going, from all this trouble I'm hearing!

I also have to say something about the terrible grammar and use of english on this forum. Its not too difficult to see which posts are written by a Chinese man, perhaps VK himself?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing Chun Student Date: 7/15/2004 3:37:48 AM IP: 81.6.229.101
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VK Observer et al., I am wondering why did you bother setting up a student union for VK's school? Its not like he's the only Wing Chun Sifu in London, there are plenty of good teachers, many from the Lee Shing lineage. Unless you're only interested in titles and want to skip a generation...

As a kung fu student, you should respect your sifu and not form a union against him. Its not university you know! If you are having problems with him, either speak to him yourself or just leave. I'm sure if all those who were unhappy with his teaching just left, then he should get the message. Its his school, HIS business, if you don't like it go somewhere else.

I can understand that many of you have paid so much already and gained so little, let that be a hard lesson for all of you in this situation. Learn from your mistakes and cut your losses and find somewhere else to learn, if you just stay and complain you only have yourselves to blame.

BTW, how much are lessons? And whats the student to teacher ratio?

Also, those students who you say are eager to fight, in what context? Streetfighting or just sparring? If its the former, I wouldn't blame VK for witholding info from them.

Most people go to VK because they've heard of him as the only direct Yip Man student still teaching in England. Also, this propoganda about him being 'the king of chi sau' and 'the true sucessor to Yip Man' in the back of any Combat magazine is what attracts the vast majority of them - I wanted to learn from him too, I was even going to visit the school... but I found somewhere else to learn. I'm thankful that I didn't bother going, from all this trouble I'm hearing!

I also have to say something about the terrible grammar and use of english on this forum. Its not too difficult to see which posts are written by a Chinese man, perhaps VK himself?
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Wing Chun Student Date: 7/15/2004 3:41:09 AM IP: 81.6.229.101
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Oh and btw, most beginners or first grade Wing Chun students rarely get to even touch a wooden dummy, let alone get to practice on them. So, if you have large classes of at least 20+, how is that going to be possible to implement? For all that money you're spending on lessons, you could've probably all bought one by now ;)
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Devoted VK Student of approx 9 years training Date: 7/16/2004 7:04:02 PM IP: 82.43.57.95
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To VK Observer - Victor Kan should thank you for all the promotion. Who knows he might even be a student of Leung Sheung's grandson but either way he's got so many students in one class nowadays and makes so much money (close to 2000 pounds a week). He's got two new assistants apart from Martin. We know that you were a student that was obviously expelled at some stage and you don't train in VKVT anymore. I hate you because the more students he gets in any one class the less attention gives me so why don't you just leave him alone and do your DIY Wing Chun everyday in the park and learn from the birds.

Visit: www.vingtsunvk.com
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Student Union Observer Date: 7/16/2004 7:37:39 PM IP: 82.43.57.95
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VK Observer:

The lineage issue was dealt with by eWarrior back in 2002/12/31 but as with all forum trolls you're playing the old game of ignoring those battles you have lost, giving it a bit of time, and then just repeating the same old dross hoping everyone has forgotten. For your information I repeat the links in that post:

"Wingchunkuen:
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/masters/masters_kanwahchit.shtml

wingchun.com:
http://www.wingchun.com/yipline.html about 2/3rds of the way down
http://www.wingchun.com/yipchron.shtml (1954-55) about half way down

sifu Duncan Leung:
Although no mention of his lineage, says that VK brought Ving Tsun to the UK
http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/

think this might be a Netherlands site:
http://www.vechtsport.nu/sporten/wingchun/Yipman_timeline.doc (same as second wingchun.com link?)

William Cheung:
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Photo%20Galleries/PhotoGalleryA.asia.html pic of William Cheung and VK

unknown
In a foreign language so I don't know what it's about but it lists VK with other Yip Man students
http://www.wingchun.ro/maestrii/elevidirecti.htm

A New York Leung Ting site
mentions VK as one of Yips early disciples (in HK?) 8th paragraph near picture of Yip Man
http://www.wingtsun-nyct.com/history.html
other:
http://www.progress-notes.com/wcyipman.html 4th paragraph of "THE FIRST PUBLIC WING CHUN SCHOOL"

http://www.cebridge.com.au/Ipman/Sifus/Victor%20Kan.htm"

Visited a few of these myself and found that indeed they say that GM Kan learnt under Yip Man. These sites have nothing to do with GM Kans organisation. Since trolls ignore this evidence I will now ignore all troll assertions that GM Kan is not a Yip Man student cos it is bollox. Case proven. Anyone who cannot disprove this and continues to assert this falsehood is just lying.
Subject: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: WC Bruiser Date: 7/16/2004 7:43:54 PM IP: 82.43.57.95
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Oy VK Observer - cancelled Thursdays at Lambeth School have we? Didn't know you were running Kan's organisation for him these days. Perhaps you'd like to cancel the Saturday classes at the school as well.

What a total JR Arthur Ranker you are.
Subject: Re: Re: Myths concerning VK and VKCVT Author: Danny Date: 9/21/2010 4:03:57 AM IP: 217.171.129.72
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I left because of being insulted by victor. I was at a difficult time of my life a thought that studying under victor would help. But after a sideways comment from him, I left. Who would want to train under a twisted man.